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Scantron · Veteran Member

Question #100 Protest

oneadditional · Guru

It was a judgement question. People supervise different and there's really no right or wrong answer. This is why we need to fight to get all 15 of the judgement questions tossed.

innocent1 · Senior Member

HEY Scantron, i put C for 100. and i beileve it should be double answer as well. also 15 should be A.

Tommy Salami · Senior Member

oneadditional wrote:
It was a judgement question. People supervise different and there's really no right or wrong answer. This is why we need to fight to get all 15 of the judgement questions tossed.

the judgement questions were OBVIOUS. I know people who didn't study AT ALL and got 100% of the judgement questions right.

Mes018 · Senior Member

Some older threads state #100 was the question where you had to get some project done for the Mayor's Office. Answer Choices were: A - Delegate the work to subordinates and authorize OT if needed. B - Cut corners to get it done on time. C - Roll up your sleeves and dig in. D - Tell the X.O. that the assignment is too much for you to handle.
I dont remember the exact wording, and I might have the answer choices switched around (especially B & D). I chose roll up your sleeves and dig in because as a lieutenant you are not allowed to authorize OT for administrative work. That is only for the PC, First Dep, and Chief of Dept. to allow. (I guess DCAS decided to change what a lieutenant is allowed to do, because according to them the answer is A - authorize OT to get it done.)

-- Edited by Mes018 on Tuesday 22nd of November 2011 02:31:36 AM

oneadditional · Guru

I got A for 15. What was the question ?

innocent1 · Senior Member

IM WONDERING AS WELL, everyone seem to have 15 A, anyone remember what that question was?

PFB · Veteran Member

I had (A) also

NextLtTest · Senior Member

I got A for 15 too!

PFB · Veteran Member

double answer!!

Mes018 · Senior Member

Got A for 15 too. Was that the Parking lot to use for mobilization question?

-- Edited by Mes018 on Tuesday 22nd of November 2011 02:43:33 AM

RumorMill · Veteran Member

Tommy Salami wrote:
oneadditional wrote:
It was a judgement question. People supervise different and there's really no right or wrong answer. This is why we need to fight to get all 15 of the judgement questions tossed.
the judgement questions were OBVIOUS. I know people who didn't study AT ALL and got 100% of the judgement questions right.

Thats why they got them right. No Patrol Guide Knowledge to cause a conflict.

OkeeDokee · Veteran Member

RumorMill wrote:
Tommy Salami wrote:
oneadditional wrote:
It was a judgement question. People supervise different and there's really no right or wrong answer. This is why we need to fight to get all 15 of the judgement questions tossed.
the judgement questions were OBVIOUS. I know people who didn't study AT ALL and got 100% of the judgement questions right.
Thats why they got them right. No Patrol Guide Knowledge to cause a conflict.

Haha. The less you know, the better you do.

oneadditional · Guru

Sad but true

outat20 · Senior Member

A for 15 also

btkx15 · Senior Member

A for 15 too

Gamblor · Senior Member

Guys, the authorizing OT question was a ground ball. Obviously, telling the XO/CO that you couldn't do it, and cutting corners were wrong. Also, everything on this test, and Lieutenant work in general, is about proper delegation. That takes out "rolling up your sleeves and doing it yourself.". Also, that answer had you delegating your supervisory duties, which you shouldn't be doing since those are YOUR specific responsibilities.

As for authorizing overtime, the PC, First Dep., COD, authorize ordered overtime, which is for details, or pretty much anything that isn't specifically coded as arrest, operational, court, etc. This question had you authorizing operational overtime, code 0150, which Lieutenants do all of the time. Hell, I do it now as a Sergeant.

area1 · Veteran Member

Mes018 wrote:
Some older threads state #100 was the question where you had to get some project done for the Mayor's Office. Answer Choices were: A - Delegate the work to subordinates and authorize OT if needed. B - Cut corners to get it done on time. C - Roll up your sleeves and dig in. D - Tell the X.O. that the assignment is too much for you to handle.
I dont remember the exact wording, and I might have the answer choices switched around (especially B & D). I chose roll up your sleeves and dig in because as a lieutenant you are not allowed to authorize OT for administrative work. That is only for the PC, First Dep, and Chief of Dept. to allow. (I guess DCAS decided to change what a lieutenant is allowed to do, because according to them the answer is A - authorize OT to get it done.)

-- Edited by Mes018 on Tuesday 22nd of November 2011 02:31:36 AM

ok . now we know how to fight this one. Mes018, are you sure this is #100.? if we get enough to fight this one then that one more point for me

RISING IDIOT · Senior Member

100 was definitely a. On test day they don't want a Lt to "roll up his sleeves and do the job himself." you authorize the OT. Yes, I know in the real world you would be crucified for that but that's the answer. this was the thinking behind it, as confirmed by an inspector.

18and1 · Senior Member

Can a LT authorize OT? I have to do a little more research cause I'm not 100% sure.

nycop80 · Guru

you are right rising idiot, however, this is not an in basket question, correct? so you are to assume following patrol guide standards.

205-17

OVERTIME:
a. NON-ORDERED - Extension of scheduled tour of duty by 15 minutes or
more to prevent interruption of services being performed, e.g., processing
an arrest, aided case, court appearance, etc. Non-ordered overtime is not
authorized for administrative duties at any level.
b. ORDERED - Extra duty required for on-going or future operational
situations, demonstrations, parades, etc., or overtime of an administrative
nature for extra duty required of an on-going or future operational
situation. (May only be authorized by Police Commissioner, First Deputy
Commissioner or Chief of Department).
c. EMERGENCY ORDERED - Extra duty performed in an emergency
when work schedules are suspended by Department order, due to largescale
disorders or disasters. (May only be authorized by Police
Commissioner, First Deputy Commissioner or Chief of Department).

It's right there in plain black and white :

overtime of an administrative
nature for extra duty required of an on-going or future operational
situation. (May only be authorized by Police Commissioner, First Deputy
Commissioner or Chief of Department).

This will be a double answer. As far as i know a LT is not one of the 3 wise men. I know you are going to say but in real life who does that ? This is not real life, it is an exam based on information that we have studied or been supplied with. Not accepting C as an answer and just accepting A violates this procedure.

NextLtTest · Senior Member

Amen Nycop880.

ImDrained · Senior Member

I got A for #15 and I got C for #100, hopefully we can protest and get this two as double answers, 2 down three to go....

1062Z · Newbie

does anyone remember what question 15 was in regards to?

J Man · Senior Member

15 - A, def in-basket maybe the "house party" detail

RISING IDIOT · Senior Member

I ended up with a 71 but the in-basket DEMOLISHED me

nycop80 · Guru

rising idiot, congrats, i wish i had a 71 right now, you are golden, i am at 67

RISING IDIOT · Senior Member

Dude I'm sure you will pick up at least 3. Start with a 68 b/c that b.s. pins question is definitely getting tossed

nycop80 · Guru

,yeah and that question , i think someone said was question 63, and i did get it wrong according to the answer key, so i would pick up a point. I also think question #100 is good for a double answer, because it can be proven in patrol guide that a LT can not authorize admin OT , only the 3 wisemen can do it. Lastly, I got the mobilization question wrong in the in basket , i chose the plaza all the way to the left because i felt the college was having a fair or something and would interfere with the parking lot, guess my thinking was wrong.

-- Edited by nycop80 on Tuesday 22nd of November 2011 01:36:12 PM

RISING IDIOT · Senior Member

nycop80 wrote:
,yeah and that question , i think someone said was question 63, and i did get it wrong according to the answer key, so i would pick up a point. I also think question #100 is good for a double answer, because it can be proven in patrol guide that a LT can not authorize admin OT , only the 3 wisemen can do it. Lastly, I got the mobilization question wrong in the in basket , i chose the plaza all the way to the left because i felt the college was having a fair or something and would interfere with the parking lot, guess my thinking was wrong.

-- Edited by nycop80 on Tuesday 22nd of November 2011 01:36:12 PM

I chose that point for the mobilization as well. That is one of my protests

NYPD74 · Senior Member

ROFL I GOT Question #100 right!!!!!

I'm guaranteed a 1.

Mel · Member

nycop80 wrote:
you are right rising idiot, however, this is not an in basket question, correct? so you are to assume following patrol guide standards.

205-17

OVERTIME:
a. NON-ORDERED - Extension of scheduled tour of duty by 15 minutes or
more to prevent interruption of services being performed, e.g., processing
an arrest, aided case, court appearance, etc. Non-ordered overtime is not
authorized for administrative duties at any level.
b. ORDERED - Extra duty required for on-going or future operational
situations, demonstrations, parades, etc., or overtime of an administrative
nature for extra duty required of an on-going or future operational
situation. (May only be authorized by Police Commissioner, First Deputy
Commissioner or Chief of Department).
c. EMERGENCY ORDERED - Extra duty performed in an emergency
when work schedules are suspended by Department order, due to largescale
disorders or disasters. (May only be authorized by Police
Commissioner, First Deputy Commissioner or Chief of Department).

It's right there in plain black and white :

overtime of an administrative
nature for extra duty required of an on-going or future operational
situation. (May only be authorized by Police Commissioner, First Deputy
Commissioner or Chief of Department).

This will be a double answer. As far as i know a LT is not one of the 3 wise men. I know you are going to say but in real life who does that ? This is not real life, it is an exam based on information that we have studied or been supplied with. Not accepting C as an answer and just accepting A violates this procedure.

that's one point for me! 3 more to go! good job!

Mel · Member

i got A for 15 too

RISING IDIOT · Senior Member

Mel wrote:
nycop80 wrote:
you are right rising idiot, however, this is not an in basket question, correct? so you are to assume following patrol guide standards.

205-17

OVERTIME:
a. NON-ORDERED - Extension of scheduled tour of duty by 15 minutes or
more to prevent interruption of services being performed, e.g., processing
an arrest, aided case, court appearance, etc. Non-ordered overtime is not
authorized for administrative duties at any level.
b. ORDERED - Extra duty required for on-going or future operational
situations, demonstrations, parades, etc., or overtime of an administrative
nature for extra duty required of an on-going or future operational
situation. (May only be authorized by Police Commissioner, First Deputy
Commissioner or Chief of Department).
c. EMERGENCY ORDERED - Extra duty performed in an emergency
when work schedules are suspended by Department order, due to largescale
disorders or disasters. (May only be authorized by Police
Commissioner, First Deputy Commissioner or Chief of Department).

It's right there in plain black and white :

overtime of an administrative
nature for extra duty required of an on-going or future operational
situation. (May only be authorized by Police Commissioner, First Deputy
Commissioner or Chief of Department).

This will be a double answer. As far as i know a LT is not one of the 3 wise men. I know you are going to say but in real life who does that ? This is not real life, it is an exam based on information that we have studied or been supplied with. Not accepting C as an answer and just accepting A violates this procedure.
that's one point for me! 3 more to go! good job!

I hope you guys get it. There will be alot of grimey people hating on a question b/c they got it right and don't want it to be a double answer. Not me. This list will be so small we will all get promoted

Mel · Member

RISING IDIOT wrote:
Mel wrote:
nycop80 wrote:
you are right rising idiot, however, this is not an in basket question, correct? so you are to assume following patrol guide standards.

205-17

OVERTIME:
a. NON-ORDERED - Extension of scheduled tour of duty by 15 minutes or
more to prevent interruption of services being performed, e.g., processing
an arrest, aided case, court appearance, etc. Non-ordered overtime is not
authorized for administrative duties at any level.
b. ORDERED - Extra duty required for on-going or future operational
situations, demonstrations, parades, etc., or overtime of an administrative
nature for extra duty required of an on-going or future operational
situation. (May only be authorized by Police Commissioner, First Deputy
Commissioner or Chief of Department).
c. EMERGENCY ORDERED - Extra duty performed in an emergency
when work schedules are suspended by Department order, due to largescale
disorders or disasters. (May only be authorized by Police
Commissioner, First Deputy Commissioner or Chief of Department).

It's right there in plain black and white :

overtime of an administrative
nature for extra duty required of an on-going or future operational
situation. (May only be authorized by Police Commissioner, First Deputy
Commissioner or Chief of Department).

This will be a double answer. As far as i know a LT is not one of the 3 wise men. I know you are going to say but in real life who does that ? This is not real life, it is an exam based on information that we have studied or been supplied with. Not accepting C as an answer and just accepting A violates this procedure.
that's one point for me! 3 more to go! good job!
I hope you guys get it. There will be alot of grimey people hating on a question b/c they got it right and don't want it to be a double answer. Not me. This list will be so small we will all get promoted

thanks. i studied so hard. i hope it works out for me and others that put the time in studying.

MN50 · Senior Member

I got 100 right, but I still say protest. This test screwed a lot of people who studied very hard, myself included. We all deserve to pass

qwerty123 · Member

The problem will be the other answers. I do not remember them clearly, but I remember choosing to authorize OT even though I knew it was in violation of the PG because I though the other answers were even worse. What were the other choices? I expect a double answer at least but be prepared to defend your "wrong" answer as well as pointing out the conflict in the "correct" answer. Do not count on that being enough because there might be a lame "most correct" defense to their answer. I got it right but I hope it gets tossed and pushes some of you onto the right side of 70.

Scantron · Veteran Member

#100 as C and #15 as A seem like very popular "wrong" answers, they seem like a good place to start.

I will print out 205-17 and make the same argument as NYCCOP80.

Anyone sure about what question #15 was?

MN50 · Senior Member

15 was either the house party detail or mobilization point, I remember they were both towards the end of the in basket

NYPD74 · Senior Member

I sorta like this exam compared to previous civil service exams. As a Sgt you needed to know Patrol guide procedures. But as a Lt, the job assumed you already knew the P.G., so they wanted to see how you can handle yourself in certain sticky situations.

As for question 100... "A" seemed to be the most correct. Why should I cut corners and be yelled at later or give a lame ass excuse that I can't do it.

C seemed too much of a kiss ass answer. Why should I delegate my responsibilities to others to get the job done? If i did it myself, you know i'm getting OT, so it defeats the purpose.

So A seemed logical. Get my best workers and get the job done while I supervise them and allow OT. Most likely if I had a few workers at it, the job will probably get done in time. I'm a supervisor who's there to supervise and delegate work because I myself have to do other things. Besides Admin LT do it all the time with Roll Call personnel.

Too many bosses treat the P.G. as the Holy Bible. There are too many robots on this job. Does reciting the P.G. make you a better boss? Hell no! The job rewards good test takers and incompetent people. Incompetent people are given no responsiblities because the department just dishes the work to others or reward good test takers who have 0 patrol experience on the notion that they must be smart. We've all encounter those types of people in our lifetime, book smarts with no common/street sense.

Am I jaded because of this LT exam? No because I only spent 50 bucks on materials and about 20 hours studying. But I would be jaded if they did this on a SGT exam.

Lostinspace · Veteran Member

What's your point?

nycop80 · Guru

i am sorry nypd74, but going by the patrol guide , a LT can not authorize admin OT no matter how you try to portray the question. read 205-17

Lostinspace · Veteran Member

I'v been in the rank for four years and I don't know any boss including COs who treat PG as Bible. Most don't even know a fraction of the book.

nycop80 · Guru

This exam has nothing to do with what you do in real life, i wish people would stop comparing it to that. This was a promotional exam where again, if nothing is stated as part of the papers in the in basket for that part of the exam then, whatever is stated in the patrol guide is what holds. NO ADMIN OT is authorized except by 3 wise men period. You can try to argue all you want. It is what it is.

Lostinspace · Veteran Member

Well said.

WANNABELT · Veteran Member

Gamblor wrote:
Guys, the authorizing OT question was a ground ball. Obviously, telling the XO/CO that you couldn't do it, and cutting corners were wrong. Also, everything on this test, and Lieutenant work in general, is about proper delegation. That takes out "rolling up your sleeves and doing it yourself.". Also, that answer had you delegating your supervisory duties, which you shouldn't be doing since those are YOUR specific responsibilities.

As for authorizing overtime, the PC, First Dep., COD, authorize ordered overtime, which is for details, or pretty much anything that isn't specifically coded as arrest, operational, court, etc. This question had you authorizing operational overtime, code 0150, which Lieutenants do all of the time. Hell, I do it now as a Sergeant.

How about delegating some of your supervisory duties to a Sgt?

nycop80 · Guru

i guess this means nothing

b. ORDERED - Extra duty required for on-going or future operational
situations, demonstrations, parades, etc., or overtime of an administrative
nature for extra duty required of an on-going or future operational
situation. (May only be authorized by Police Commissioner, First Deputy
Commissioner or Chief of Department).

Mes018 · Senior Member

Everybody knows the real world is different from the patrol guide fantasy world. That does not change the fact that for a thought or idea to be testable there should be some point of reference. DCAS notice of examination stated that the patrol guide, admin guide, LBBs, etc was the source of material that the test will be based on. If a judgement question has a correct answer that is not referenced in any of the material, then fine. But for this question there are 2 sources of information (patrol guide and admin guide) that directly mention the authorizing of admin ot and who is allowed to do it. At this point, it ceases to be a judgement question. I guess my point is you can't give me a test, tell me it is based on a rule book that I must know, ask me a question, then tell me the answer is to ignore what that rule book tells you to do.

NYPD74 · Senior Member

Black and White

Mes018 · Senior Member

RE: Question #100 Protest