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Truthseeker wrote:

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Not sure how many of the Sgts this would affect. Hate to be the guy who points this out, but if it doesnt effect majority of Sgts then most Sgts do not give a flying ****. If it means delaying their raises or getting less to fix a qualm of yours, most will vote what benefits them. Just reality of this job and humans in whole.

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 100% All SGT not at top pay better hope the Union is actively trying to correct the pay disparity cause if not whatever Contract they present the majority will just sign. Like the last crap deal they got. Ill tell u this that I think this time around they should be more motivated to correct seeing as how this pay disparity is affecting almost half the rank so hopefully they do what needs to be done.

Truthseeker wrote:

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Not sure how many of the Sgts this would affect. Hate to be the guy who points this out, but if it doesnt effect majority of Sgts then most Sgts do not give a flying ****. If it means delaying their raises or getting less to fix a qualm of yours, most will vote what benefits them. Just reality of this job and humans in whole.

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 Every Sgt promoted from September 2017 until now is affected. Its a significant amount of people and money. The issue is most have no idea whats going on, and the delegates just telling us we are shit out of luck. 

The Uncle has me thinking about my BMOC. When the SBA came in to speak to us, it was just the Treasurer that came. Comically, he made it a point to say how the SBA accounts for every dollar spent and then boasted of how much better their coffers are now then during past administrations. This is pre-Mullins arrest, but damn I feel like they all suck. 

NYM wrote:

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What is taking the SBA so long? Detectives are about to have their contract. Lieutenant's are about to have their final contract meeting on October 5th. Vincent Vallelong, Edmund Small and the rest of the SBA are holding up the contract to get some sort of compensation for 12 hour tours because they screwed up the last contract and took givebacks. Why are we waiting? Why are sergeants being promoted the last two months making more money than sergeants that have 3 years in rank already? This union is absolute trash.

The next meeting is 10/26, where is it taking place? We should all be able to attend. Someone should record it like they recorded the PBA meetings so we can actually hear what is going on.

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 We need a Level 4 mobilization to that date and location with a show of force. We need to get the point across that anything less will not be tolerated. When we get the info, we need to organize and spread the info and encourage the 2,000+ members that it behooves them to participate . Bringing friends and family.

3testwonder wrote:

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Lets go. Im showing up

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 LETTTTSSSS GOOOO! Ill see you there! Spread the word!

Kass wrote:

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Im there for sure. If we dont represent ourselves we will only have ourselves to blame when the next awful contract is put out. 

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 Someone should blast an official flyer for this so it gets around, if in fact everyone is serious about this.

Gameinfamous wrote:

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VetteCop wrote:

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If the DEA ratifies their contract, a bunch of former detectives turned sergeants will now technically had made more than the 105k (step 5 sgt) prior to their promotion to sergeant. Do they all go to top pay upon ratification? How does that work?

 

They start voting today. I suspect it'll pass with flying colors. 

-- Edited by VetteCop on Sunday 1st of October 2023 04:00:31 AM

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 This is actually a great question, hopefully someone knows the answer to this. I doubt anyone from DEA or SBA would even know the answer. 

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 literally nobody knows the answer

Jibberjab wrote:

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VetteCop wrote:

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If the DEA ratifies their contract, a bunch of former detectives turned sergeants will now technically had made more than the 105k (step 5 sgt) prior to their promotion to sergeant. Do they all go to top pay upon ratification? How does that work?

 

They start voting today. I suspect it'll pass with flying colors. 

-- Edited by VetteCop on Sunday 1st of October 2023 04:00:31 AM

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 Absolutely not. They are going off of what you were being paid at time of promotion not what you would have made with back pay. 

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 You spelt demotion wrong

I have spoken to several Sgts who have no idea about the top pay disparity, that we deserve retroactive payments, or that our union dues even went up without a single email or notification.

Since on this job, number speak louder than words, I have crunched the numbers to see how much retro is owed due to the disparity:

1. These were run up to todays date of October 3, 2023. They do not include longevity, overtime, etc...this was run using only base salaries. (which means retro would be more).

2. This is a rough estimate. I ran the numbers several times but no ones perfect.

3. Please do not confuse retro payments due to raises. This is completely separate.

4. I used the promotion dates I was able to get off the 2016 Sgt Forum but this applies to any class promoted after August 1, 2017

Bottom line, if you were promoted after August 1, 2017 up to the most recent classes, you were paid less than a Police Officer as of August 1, 2021.

We can go on and on about rumors and what delegates are and are not telling us, but you cant dispute numbers. The union might very well be fighting for this retro, and its just alot of misinformation, but at this point in time delegates are telling us that its a done deal, that the union will not attempt to get us this retro. Just remember, youre paying $1,400 a year in dues to have delegates tell you youre not getting paid whats owed.

Ultimately, many will say "job is dead" or "union sucks" but you have the final vote. Everytime there's subpar contract, there's a 70%+ vote for approval. If you vote yes for a contract in which the union doesnt even attempt to fight for compensation thats owed, then you only have yourself to blame.

MuhlikCritty wrote:

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I have spoken to several Sgts who have no idea about the top pay disparity, that we deserve retroactive payments, or that our union dues even went up without a single email or notification.

Since on this job, number speak louder than words, I have crunched the numbers to see how much retro is owed due to the disparity:

Promotion Date		Retro		Promotion Date		Retro
01/30/18		$10,053		11/24/20		$47,224
03/27/18		$13,147		12/22/20		$47,259
06/05/18		$17,013		01/29/21		$47,307
07/27/18		$19,886		03/18/21		$47,367
08/31/18		$21,936		06/10/21		$47,473
10/26/18		$25,246		07/30/21		$47,536
12/21/18		$28,557		09/10/21		$45,174
03/05/19		$32,932		10/18/21		$42,919
05/03/19		$36,420		02/09/22		$36,118
06/28/19		$39,731		05/27/22		$29,735
08/30/19		$43,471		06/22/22		$28,184
10/30/19		$45,619		07/22/22		$26,394
12/19/19		$45,840		08/26/22		$24,306
02/26/20		$46,145		09/30/22		$22,218
03/27/20		$46,273		10/28/22		$20,529
05/29/20		$46,551		11/23/22		$18,960
06/25/20		$46,671		12/23/22		$17,148

1. These were run up to todays date of October 3, 2023. They do not include longevity, overtime, etc...this was run using only base salaries. (which means retro would be more).

2. This is a rough estimate. I ran the numbers several times but no ones perfect.

3. Please do not confuse retro payments due to raises. This is completely separate.

4. I used the promotion dates I was able to get off the 2016 Sgt Forum but this applies to any class promoted after August 1, 2017

Bottom line, if you were promoted after August 1, 2017 up to the most recent classes, you were paid less than a Police Officer as of August 1, 2021.

We can go on and on about rumors and what delegates are and are not telling us, but you cant dispute numbers. The union might very well be fighting for this retro, and its just alot of misinformation, but at this point in time delegates are telling us that its a done deal, that the union will not attempt to get us this retro. Just remember, youre paying $1,400 a year in dues to have delegates tell you youre not getting paid whats owed.

Ultimately, many will say "job is dead" or "union sucks" but you have the final vote. Everytime there's subpar contract, there's a 70%+ vote for approval. If you vote yes for a contract in which the union doesnt even attempt to fight for compensation thats owed, then you only have yourself to blame.

 

-- Edited by MuhlikCritty on Wednesday 4th of October 2023 01:10:04 AM

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^^^ THIS!!!

SBA MIA wrote:

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The fact that a three year sgt makes 9k less than a 5.5 year po is an absolute disgrace. We should be getting full retro ensuring that at all times as a sgt we are making more than a subordinate. This is common sense. No other profession does a subordinate make more base salary than their supervisor. The sba is sleeping at the wheel and the fact the board was able to stay in tact after the Mullins grand larceny that they knew nothing about 600k stolen from under their noses. I hope the unannounced raised union dues pays for their steak dinners and wine tasting while half their members are getting hosed. Im tired of the nothing we can do kid, you knew your salary when you took the promotion. They didnt care about about tier 3 getting screwed and they dont care about anything but getting their suits pressed and attending parties on our dime. Rant over

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 100% facts, well said!

And it shouldnt just stop at all the higher ups in the SBA we should be hounding our personal reps. They all vote whether to bring the contract to the members. If they bring a contract thats less than fair to all of the members, then they should be voted out of the position. I believe all but 3 reps voted to bring the last terrible contract to the table. Its pathetic. Theyre as bad as politicians. 

Thats over 2000 SGTs. Thats still a significant amount, well over 30%. A top pay cop gets $321 more per check than a Sgt not at top pay. Thats just egregious.

SBA MIA wrote:

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The fact that a three year sgt makes 9k less than a 5.5 year po is an absolute disgrace. We should be getting full retro ensuring that at all times as a sgt we are making more than a subordinate. This is common sense. No other profession does a subordinate make more base salary than their supervisor. The sba is sleeping at the wheel and the fact the board was able to stay in tact after the Mullins grand larceny that they knew nothing about 600k stolen from under their noses. I hope the unannounced raised union dues pays for their steak dinners and wine tasting while half their members are getting hosed. Im tired of the nothing we can do kid, you knew your salary when you took the promotion. They didnt care about about tier 3 getting screwed and they dont care about anything but getting their suits pressed and attending parties on our dime. Rant over

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This.

Even if they were completely innocent and oblivious (let's assume hopefully they were), in the whole Mullins thing, the entire board should have resigned due to the optics. It would have been the right thing to do, but they wouldn't dream of it. If they resigned, how could they gallivant around in their fancy suits from function to function? While sergeant's are on the desk and patrol with no meal, making less than a cop, with 10 times the stress and responsibility than the current board members had as a rookie sergeant in 1998?

No one voted for Vinny, he just assumed the presidency of a union with 4K+ members? How does that happen? So the former president is in federal prison and the VP just slides in to the spot? No questions asked? Then magically a month and a half later he has the delegates vote in a terrible contract that gave up an extra year to top pay? Now he is negotiating the livelihood of thousands of members trying to provide for their families and telling them don't expect a retro for the 2.5 years you made less than a PO? Telling the members, whose problems he doesn't truly care about because it doesn't affect him, it is what it is, you knew the contract when you took the promotion? Also, isn't it ironic how the SBA has been extremely quiet publicly about any of this? I don't remember seeing one negative post by the SBA about the city since Vinny took over as president. Shouldn't they be pounding their fists that some of our members are making significantly less than their subordinates? Why aren't they? Why aren't they giving us information consistently about what's going on?

Everyone remember, we have strength in numbers, we have to organize and make our voice heard that we want change. We have to make it known that we will except nothing short of being placed at top pay as of 8/1/2021 if we were promoted prior to that date, and if we were promoted after, that we be made top pay as of our promotion date. That is the only fair and proper solution to this disaster created by the SBA and the city. 

That being said, there are some steps that I believe should be taken now and/or in the future:

-We need to identify new candidates and seek a way to hold an interim vote for president and have Vinny and his board members removed. It's time for a new direction. 

-We need to receive better communication from the union and more often. I don't want to get some WhatsApp message forwarded to me from a delegate that I don't even know after a meeting. I want the minutes of every SBA meeting emailed to every sergeant, or at least an email from the board, explaining what was discussed. I want a notification and explanation every time the SBA communicates with the city about contracts or anything directly affecting the sergeants and what was discussed and what were the results. The PBA contract was ratified 6 months ago, the SBA knew this was happening, and they had ample time to get the ball rolling. What were they doing the whole time? It wasn't until new sergeants were going to top pay right away that people must have started complaining and they sent out an email saying they are working on it. 

-There are 9 board members. There should be a minimum of 3-4 Tier 3 members on the board. Sorry, call me cynical, but I don't think the guy with 35 years on the job truly cares that much about my interests. I don't think they are losing sleep because I don't have ITHP, 50/50, or a 20 year retirement. 

-There should be term limits for all members of the board. Not sure exactly on numbers, but 2-3 terms, and once you hit 25-30 years on the job, you ain't got to retire, but you can't stay here. 

-Stop sending me emails every holiday informing me that the SBA office is closed while the other 4000 of us are working. 

-Every delegate from the president on down should have to do patrol periodically to understand the true issues a sergeant faces in 2023. They are all assigned a home command on paper. How can the president and the board know how to help their constituents if they haven't done a shooting 49 or dealt with patrol in 20+ years? How many daily recaps does a desk officer have to send at EOT before the SBA says enough is enough, we don't have time for this. How many meals does a sergeant have to miss before they remind the city and higher ups that meal is NOT A PRIVILIGE, IT IS GUARANTEED under labor law. Needs of the Department is for extreme emergencies, i.e. Hurricane Sandy, the blackout, the riots, etc., NOT for us to work 9-10 hours straight on a routine patrol day because everyone is fleeing this job and personnel mismanagement by the job means that there isn't enough manpower to have a break. That is not a justifiable excuse from someone to be denied a meal. The fact that the city has ran this job into the ground is not our problem. So maybe if the delegates, especially the board members, had to cover patrol every once in a while, they would see that the heck is going on and attempt to make changes. I know that the board members do legitimately have a lot of events and issues to deal with, but I'm proposing something written in the bylaws along the lines of the following:

                  -Precinct delegate - Must be assigned to patrol squad - NO INSIDE OR SPECIALTY GIGS

                  -Director - One desk tour per month, one patrol tour per month.

                  -President/Board Member - One desk tour per quarter, one patrol tour per quarter. 

Come help your members out SBA! Put your uniform on. That's what you took the position for, right? To help out your fellow sergeants? Come help us. Give us a meal. Some of us haven't had one in 2023. Here's another thought, actually listen to the sergeants in your command and don't blindly vote yes for the next bad contract they propose because they told you it's a good deal. We were told the last contract was a good deal and that the raise percentages and giving up a step to top pay was "pattern bargaining". Some pattern, we are the only union to give up a step, and the DEA just got one step BACK. I may have got the math questions wrong on the LT test, but I don't think 1 out of 5 is a pattern, Vin. 

All of us should be consistently asking questions of the SBA and our delegates, making our voices heard, and letting them know how truly unhappy we are. If they come out with a contract that doesn't include the sergeants in that time period affected by the disparity being placed at top pay retroactively, and receiving back pay accordingly, VOTE NO. Ultimately, if this situation isn't corrected properly, the SBA should file suit against the city on our behalf, and if they don't, we may have to ourselves. 

The lieutenants are meeting with the city tomorrow Im hearing they plan to agree to contract. Included is 12 hr platoon commander schedule. If department implements the 12 hours to patrol commands LT schedule will be 12:33 tours 4 on 3 off, 3 on 4 off. 2 day tour and 2 night tour platoon commanders, 1 LT working at a time (believe the city is agreeing to up the allotted LTs on the job to make this happen but I dont have any details on that)
The working day and RDOs will look something like this:

Week 1
Work: Sunday Monday Tuesday Wednesday
Off: Thursday Friday Saturday
Week 2
Work:Sunday Monday Tuesday
Off: Wednesday Thursday Friday Saturday

OR

Week 1
Off: Sunday Monday Tuesday
Work: Wednesday Thursday Friday Saturday
Week 2
Off: Sunday Monday Thursday Wednesday
Work: Thursday Friday Saturday 

That schedule is an additional 79 RDOs a year
Vacation will be 18 days vs 27 to adjust for the longer tours (same amount of hours off)

Didnt hear any changes about the chart time. Think thats staying the same.

12:33 tours... The big question is do LT's go back to accruing chart time or still no??? the extra 33 minutes had better be chart time accrued. Im tired of working 45 minutes a day for free right now