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(MY take on what 63ASAP is Saying) The test scores are reviewed to ensure that more "DIVERSITY" is reflected on the list AND IN THE RANKS and then the list is curved or graded, whichever word you prefer,  to make that a reality. And Honestly 63Asap has posted the most informative post I have ever seen since I have been a member of this forum (2008)

-- Edited by Samiam32 on Friday 23rd of March 2018 01:44:18 PM

-- Edited by Samiam32 on Friday 23rd of March 2018 01:51:22 PM

70 is still passing.... it just appears that they can manipulate who can get to a 70.  

www.google.com/amp/s/www.newsday.com/amp/news/new-york/nyc-council-questions-lack-of-diversity-in-nypd-s-top-ranks-1.13083819

bigfoot45 wrote:

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70 is still passing.... it just appears that they can manipulate who can get to a 70.  

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 Then a 70 is not passing. Who you know or what hooks you have is now passing

All I have to say is "WOW..."  Good stuff.

This is CONFIRMED. There are NO assumptions....this is FACT. This is illegal IF it is based on racial/ethnic background which it seems to be. This is blatant discrimination against certain races. We have standing to bring a lawsuit against  the job and DCAS. A person being moved a 100 or so names on the Lts list may cost people several classes before being promoted or possibly not getting promoted if they cut it at the end. People who got more questions wrong will be moved ahead based on certain criteria.

This will even be more exacerbated if you're on the Captains list. 

-- Edited by Nappybkpd on Friday 23rd of March 2018 03:00:21 PM

I was in the process of debating whether to post this or not but cat is out of the bag so Ill post it now (I think 63 has already confimed it):

Not trying to start anything but I only repeat what I hear and this is what Im hearing... the mess up could potentially be from the citys attempt to add even more diversity to the top of the PDs ranks. If certain questions have been deemed to have a drastic disparity of people of a certain chosen group not answering it corretly at higher rates in comparison to other groups then a loop hole in law may allow for the question to be thrown out. This could happen even if the question is taken right out of the PG word for word with no gray areas. DCAS may be playing these exams in the same way that has plagued FDNY entry exams since a decade old lawsuit. I hear this may have been done to the Sgts list explaining such a drastic difference in the number of people first reported as passing vs the number of people who actually made the list. I hear they may be trying the same with our Lts list. This has nothing to do with nepotism on our job which btw I hate bc I dont believe un-deserving people deserve better gigs however if true this is no different.

Disclaimer: I never defined the chosen group so you cant cry and complain. Therefore chosen group could be anything: ex. People who like listening to the opera, people who watch the price is right, people who like the beach, people who hate the beach...

Wasnt sure whether to post this or not but I feel people have the right to know. If this is true DCAS needs to be up front and let people know what is happening and cant hide this crap behind closed doors. They should have to disclose what reasoning is used behind the grading and the specific reasons for each question thrown out. Also what laws are they doing this under if found to be true? The standards used to grade these exams need to be made well known publicly and should be established as legal before applied. There has to be an offical disclosure of what will happen bc its not fair to all of us. I hope this gets taken care of quickly.

Also if you have heard the same or have any info to contribute regarding whats happening that could solidify any of this info please do share it on the forum. We need this info out there. Also Im not trying to start a social debate here Im simply repeating what the word on the street is and I love you all equally!

Not to hijack your forum but DCAS did provide a written explanation as to why questions were thrown out on the Sgts exam. I attended the TVB reading session. Each question received a full blown explanation as to why it was thrown out or why it wasn't. The report was well over 100 pages long.

If you research the firm, they have been sued multiple times. Some wins, some losses. Regardless of DCAS trying to hire a firm to avoid a lawsuit, that's impossible to attempt. A lawsuit can definitely commence. 

I do agree, there is nothing to do until the scores come out. Or DCAS explains how each question will be weighed.   

Reds wrote:

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Not to hijack your forum but DCAS did provide a written explanation as to why questions were thrown out on the Sgts exam. I attended the TVB reading session. Each question received a full blown explanation as to why it was thrown out or why it wasn't. The report was well over 100 pages long.

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 Thats not whats being discussed.

 

Example. Question 50 is thrown out.

10% of fat people got it wrong. They get 1 point.

But 90% of skinny people got it wrong. They get 1.25 points based on a weighted percent average.

brooklynbacon wrote:

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Reds wrote:

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Not to hijack your forum but DCAS did provide a written explanation as to why questions were thrown out on the Sgts exam. I attended the TVB reading session. Each question received a full blown explanation as to why it was thrown out or why it wasn't. The report was well over 100 pages long.

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 Thats not whats being discussed.

 

Example. Question 50 is thrown out.

10% of fat people got it wrong. They get 1 point.

But 90% of skinny people got it wrong. They get 1.25 points based on a weighted percent average.

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While not confirmed, it's possible that some sort of similar methodology was used. As stated above, it's true that until scores come out, we'll be in the dark. All, please take my post more as a search for transparency in grading methods rather than stirring rumors. Yes, we know some things have changed but we don't know how or what.

And Reds, you're not hijacking at all, but question for you. At the TVB reading session, how many questions were tossed? And did that number correlate with your expected score (with all the extras added and such)? Some friends were told X amount was tossed, yet their score was well higher. Curious on hearing from others who were there.

-- Edited by 63ASAP on Friday 23rd of March 2018 03:50:40 PM

Drstylez12 wrote:

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brooklynbacon wrote:

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Reds wrote:

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Not to hijack your forum but DCAS did provide a written explanation as to why questions were thrown out on the Sgts exam. I attended the TVB reading session. Each question received a full blown explanation as to why it was thrown out or why it wasn't. The report was well over 100 pages long.

---

 Thats not whats being discussed.

 

Example. Question 50 is thrown out.

10% of fat people got it wrong. They get 1 point.

But 90% of skinny people got it wrong. They get 1.25 points based on a weighted percent average.

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 So this only comes to play when a question gets thrown out? 

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 Its when a disparity is found between certain groups getting one question wrong at a high rate then other groups. However we dont know what remedy they are applying making this whole ordeal really shady, unfair and no other better word comes to mind then MANIPULATION to get a more desired outcome. 

FranknBeans wrote:

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Here we go. Now anyone of a certain ethnicity who originally did great is now gonna be looked at like they got a leg up. So much for brotherhood.

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So true... I agree.. 

Brotherhood on this JOB Died A LONG TIME AGO.

I second what Samiam32 said...This is the best, most informative post I have ever seen on any of these boards! Nice job 63ASAP!!

Here's a good description of the 80% Rule Test (4/5ths rule) referenced in the post. I had never heard of it before.

https://www.prevuehr.com/resources/insights/adverse-impact-analysis-four-fifths-rule/

Leslie wrote:

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I was in the process of debating whether to post this or not but cat is out of the bag so Ill post it now (I think 63 has already confimed it):

Not trying to start anything but I only repeat what I hear and this is what Im hearing... the mess up could potentially be from the citys attempt to add even more diversity to the top of the PDs ranks. If certain questions have been deemed to have a drastic disparity of people of a certain chosen group not answering it corretly at higher rates in comparison to other groups then a loop hole in law may allow for the question to be thrown out. This could happen even if the question is taken right out of the PG word for word with no gray areas. DCAS may be playing these exams in the same way that has plagued FDNY entry exams since a decade old lawsuit. I hear this may have been done to the Sgts list explaining such a drastic difference in the number of people first reported as passing vs the number of people who actually made the list. I hear they may be trying the same with our Lts list. This has nothing to do with nepotism on our job which btw I hate bc I dont believe un-deserving people deserve better gigs however if true this is no different.

Disclaimer: I never defined the chosen group so you cant cry and complain. Therefore chosen group could be anything: ex. People who like listening to the opera, people who watch the price is right, people who like the beach, people who hate the beach...

Wasnt sure whether to post this or not but I feel people have the right to know. If this is true DCAS needs to be up front and let people know what is happening and cant hide this crap behind closed doors. They should have to disclose what reasoning is used behind the grading and the specific reasons for each question thrown out. Also what laws are they doing this under if found to be true? The standards used to grade these exams need to be made well known publicly and should be established as legal before applied. There has to be an offical disclosure of what will happen bc its not fair to all of us. I hope this gets taken care of quickly.

Also if you have heard the same or have any info to contribute regarding whats happening that could solidify any of this info please do share it on the forum. We need this info out there. Also Im not trying to start a social debate here Im simply repeating what the word on the street is and I love you all equally!

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 My Source told me about this weeks ago, along with the fact that the Lt list was in PD hands. I left this information out because I didnt think it would come to fruition. Now that it seems it is, 63ASAP is dead on. 

This should be 100% illegal. Sadly its prob defended by the law

-- Edited by Leslie on Friday 23rd of March 2018 05:09:04 PM

Affirmative Action in Testing

Drstylez12 wrote:

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Leslie wrote:

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Not sure how someone could formulate a lawsuit when people dont even know how it effected their score... I doubt anything will happen. The job prob sat down with dcas to make sure they were covered and to help them understand how the list is shielded under the law from possible lawsuits. All I know is I should have at minimum a 90% on that freaking list, lets see what happens..

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 I think we all need to come down and wait to the list comes out, I could understand the concerns but lets just relax and wait and see.

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 Yea I know... I just want them to get this crap right and not have to wait any longer smh

Very well put together post... Ive overheard people talking about so called minority points weeks ago from some what of a reliable source but at the same time i didn't want to entertain it. I further heard that a "list" was in someones hands in 1 PP... it all means nothing in my opinion... after 2015 anything is possible.

Let the racism begin, god forbid minorities on this job past a fair test that can never happen all of a sudden the conspiracy theories begin.  63ASAP youre everything thats wrong with police work spreading rumors with enough truths sprinkled into them as to make them believabl.  Youre a race baiter Al Sharpton in reverse shame on you and those  like you and everyone else thats going to start postin that they didnt past or got a lower score because of some secret formula to promote minorities.    Anyone who writes a racist post be prepare to defend it in person because I will make it my mission to put you.

kaysersoze69 wrote:

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Let the racism begin, god forbid minorities on this job past a fair test that can never happen all of a sudden the conspiracy theories begin.  63ASAP youre everything thats wrong with police work spreading rumors with enough truths sprinkled into them as to make them believabl.  Youre a race baiter Al Sharpton in reverse shame on you and those  like you and everyone else thats going to start postin that they didnt past or got a lower score because of some secret formula to promote minorities.    Anyone who writes a racist post be prepare to defend it in person because I will make it my mission to put you.

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 Well said. I studied my ass off for this test and for the 2015 test. I know a lot of people that did of all races so lets not try to take that away from anyone that put the effort in.

Screamingator1 wrote:

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Here's my FOIL request:

 

In relation to the August 23, 2017 administered Promotion to Lieutenant (Police) Exam No. 7532, pursuant to the Rules of the City of New York (RCNY) 43 RCNY § 1-08 (a), which implements the New York State Freedom of Information Law please provide the following information:

1.  Analysis results for evidence of item (individual test questions) validity, measures of test reliability, and evidence that there is an identified or absence of adverse impact for all focal group members of a gender, educational and/or ethnic group; 1a. and specific focal groups that were identified for any such analysis.

2. Analysis results from any adverse impact analysis and any method used in such analysis to include but not limited to the Fisher Exact Test, Non-Statistical Analysis Methods and the 80% Rule Test and any reports generated or compiled in regard. 

3. Results of any analysis that identified differential performance of the identified focal groups on individual test items and any reports generated or compiled in regard. 

4. Any and all remedies that were implemented and/or considered to remedy any identified adverse impacts on identified focal groups and any reports generated or compiled in regard.

5. Any item analysis of specific exam questions of the proposed answer key and any reports generated or compiled in regard.

6. Results of any item analysis that summarizes candidate group performance on the test as a whole and on individual test items, by candidate ethnic and gender self-identification and by total population any reports generated or compiled in regard.

7. Identification of specific unit, section or working group employed by DCAS that conducted any of the analysis identified above (1-6)

8. Identification of any outside entity that was contracted in response to an official RFP (Request for Proposal) or otherwise for performance of any of the analysis identified above (1-6) and cost of such contracted service either projected or paid to such entity.

 

I'll post if I hear anything back...

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We'll be a year into promotions before they even figure out what half of those questions mean... 

kaysersoze69 wrote:

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Let the racism begin, god forbid minorities on this job past a fair test that can never happen all of a sudden the conspiracy theories begin.  63ASAP youre everything thats wrong with police work spreading rumors with enough truths sprinkled into them as to make them believabl.  Youre a race baiter Al Sharpton in reverse shame on you and those  like you and everyone else thats going to start postin that they didnt past or got a lower score because of some secret formula to promote minorities.    Anyone who writes a racist post be prepare to defend it in person because I will make it my mission to put you.

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It's affirmative action.

Come find me bro.