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Just in case DCAS and/or the job actually reads this forum and need ideas on how to make this wrong, right, what is your suggestion for the LT 2015 list? To whom it may concern, below are my two cents:
1) Everyone that passed April 18 should be made. Yes, eventhough that list is mainly non-patrol personnel and composed of IAB, acronym units and inside people (people with unfair advantage) they all should be made because they still put in the work.
2) The exam was so flawed and unfair that it should definitely be curved. Anyone that scored 60 or above would have passed any other test with flying colors. To prove my point, review the inbasket, no uniform member of this Department would get through that inbasket with confidence of answering any of those questions correctly. That alone caused that mainly only those working in IAB and acronym units actually made the list. That was unfair disadvantage to every patrol Sergeant out there that didn't have the time to study as an inside person could.
Ways to curve it?
1) Anyone that failed the investigation from the 2nd group, of course don't make the list.
2) Curve the list relative to the % that passed from the 2nd group as suggested by Eze or just add to the list the still few that scored 60 or above.
Moving forward, the test should not be given on Saturdays and the make up test should not be given later than 3-4 weeks after the original. The review section should also take place after everyone sat for the test.
-- Edited by machine on Wednesday 6th of April 2016 08:49:34 AM
4) If needed just throw out the entire list. Detsgt and the majority of the 168 will have all the time in the world to study while eating cheese at IAB all day long. Unlike patrol Sergeants, they will be alright.
5) Reinstate/ bring back Ondeeair to risingstar.
-- Edited by machine on Wednesday 6th of April 2016 12:07:18 PM
6) Be prepared to throw out every subsequent test because people will fail and Waaaaaaaaaaa and make up stupid recommendation lists that ask for curves and exclusion of "acronym unit" people.
Here we go again attacking one another. The curve would be the happy medium instead of throwing the list out or doing aboslutey nothing and not changing the broken process we all complained about. P.S. Rumor is the department is looking into throwing the list out, promoting some sgts with the pay so they can help with the shortage of Lts. Personally i hope they dont i have alot of friends that busted their asses to pass this list. Also machine no need to attack acronym units, some of us do work. If patrol is so time consuming, why not put in for a unit right before the next exam ?
-- Edited by common sense on Wednesday 6th of April 2016 01:44:20 PM
Curve would be a happy medium. But it's not realistic since the crying 9 made false allegations of cheating, like I said before had they stuck to legitimate grips I would support them.
"P.S. Rumor is the department is looking into throwing the list out, promoting some sgts with the pay so they can help with the shortage of Lts."
Common Sense I hope your making this up. I refuse to believe that your a supervisor employed by the Nypd and actually believe that they will promote Ssa and Sds to the CIVIL SERVICE rank of LT without them passing a civil service exam.
-- Edited by DETSGT on Wednesday 6th of April 2016 05:27:00 PM
Rumor was sgts r getting the ssa or sds pay in order to do the Lt job. Not to the rank of the LT. Sorry if there was a confusion. Again it was a rumor figured i would share.
Rumor was sgts r getting the ssa or sds pay in order to do the Lt job. Not to the rank of the LT. Sorry if there was a confusion. Again it was a rumor figured i would share.
SMH... I'm kind of glad nobody is reading or posting on here anymore. This has become a forum for misinformation and biased agendas. Oh well, in time I guess things will go back to normal.
Rumor was sgts r getting the ssa or sds pay in order to do the Lt job. Not to the rank of the LT. Sorry if there was a confusion. Again it was a rumor figured i would share.
SMH... I'm kind of glad nobody is reading or posting on here anymore. This has become a forum for misinformation and biased agendas. Oh well, in time I guess things will go back to normal.
Just in case DCAS and/or the job actually reads this forum and need ideas on how to make this wrong, right, what is your suggestion for the LT 2015 list? To whom it may concern, below are my two cents:
1) Everyone that passed April 18 should be made. Yes, eventhough that list is mainly non-patrol personnel and composed of IAB, acronym units and inside people (people with unfair advantage) they all should be made because they still put in the work.
2) The exam was so flawed and unfair that it should definitely be curved. Anyone that scored 60 or above would have passed any other test with flying colors. To prove my point, review the inbasket, no uniform member of this Department would get through that inbasket with confidence of answering any of those questions correctly. That alone caused that mainly only those working in IAB and acronym units actually made the list. That was unfair disadvantage to every patrol Sergeant out there that didn't have the time to study as an inside person could.
Ways to curve it?
1) Anyone that failed the investigation from the 2nd group, of course don't make the list.
2) Curve the list relative to the % that passed from the 2nd group as suggested by Eze or just add to the list the still few that scored 60 or above.
Moving forward, the test should not be given on Saturdays and the make up test should not be given later than 3-4 weeks after the original. The review section should also take place after everyone sat for the test.
-- Edited by machine on Wednesday 6th of April 2016 08:49:34 AM
Agree with everyone who took the exam on day 1 getting made, but realistically how would one discriminate against legit make up exams takers like someone overseas fighting for this country, someone out with a legit LOD that cannot even walk into an exam location, or a pregnant female about to pop any second? Sounds like the make up exam takers would have a lawsuit, no?
Also I am sure the exam was brutally difficult, but if the questions were testing on the actual material and were worded properly that didn't corrupt the meaning and nothing was thrown out, then dare I say it, is was a fair exam from the actual questions and wording? Lets face it, most of the exam takers this time out were probably off the 2011 Sgt exam, no offense to anyone who got made off of that one, but it was the easiest exam of a generation and if you did well on that, it is not indicative of doing well on other exams that were all consistently more difficult. If you were a 2011 Sgt exam passer you may have had an unreasonable expectation of what these exams are usually like which is highly difficult. Once again not saying the 2011 Sgt exam was easy, but judging by the amount of passers, it certainly doesn't appear it was anywhere near as challenging as other exams within a decade of it.
2003 Lt exam was extremely competitive as you needed a raw score of 81 just to make the list, 2006 was a fair exam with 1200 passers but only a little more than half actually got promoted and the list expired, 2011 was a complete shytshow of contradictory questions that often went to things that had nothing to do with the source material and consequently had 19 adjustments just to get a list of 600+. Point being, you guys are not the first exam takers to have a rough exam and i highly doubt you will be the last.
The only good that can come of this mess is the department cracks down on make up exam takers. No more religious discrimination, no more scheduled military drills that coincide with the exam, no more BS sick or LOD excuses (have to put the onus on district surgeons to give the scammers a kick in the ass!). The make up exam will still exist, but hopefully you can count on one or two hands who actually sits for it and no protest session before the make up exam.
I get it, the 2011 exam was fairly easy. I went in not as prepared as I should've been, barely new how to do an Inbasket and still walked out with an 86 raw score, not even finishing the exam. That was the first promotional exam I ever took. I was 10 times more prepared for this exam, put in a lot more time and still died at a 69. This test was NOT fair. Why ? The man who wrote the test wrote it purposely using trickery so everyone one would fail. Asking questions that either way you slice it, it would take you 20 minutes to dissect it. Going to the most obscure procedures. There were flaws in this exam but dcas chose not to do anything about it and go against the Tvb. So you have 128 people or whatever that just barely passed( not including cheaters). I've talked to a few of the elite 128 and they admitted that they don't even know how they passed. Half of them could've easily ended up with a 69 and there would've been a list of elite 70 or 80 but luck came their way. That's a fair exam ? Bottom line a promotional exam for an NYPD lieutenant shouldn't be written the way it was . The 03/06 and 2011 was a walk in the park compared to the 2015 test AND they still gave the 2011 test takers 18 changes. What should happen imho? Promote the elite 128 immediately. Investigate the alleged cheaters and curve the test by at least 5 points cause a guy with a 65 would be in the high 80's on a fair exam. What will happen? The job will pretend to do something by freezing the list for a month and then everyone will get promoted, including my man levy.
This test was definetly written for everyone to fail. The obscure procedures, ops orders and ccrg questions, hybrid questions which required you to know 4 procedures for one question. There is a bottle neck at the rank of LT and most who reach the rank refuse to take the capt test. That's why I believe the jobs wants to make the Lt test more competitive, which I agree with but this test was nearly impossible.
The Operations Order nonsense has to stop, what its not enough to have the Patrol Guide, the Penal Law, the Legal Bureau Bulletins, the Crime Complaint Reporting Reference Guide, and a few Administrative Guide procedures that pertain to the rank of Lieutenant? Also there is a procedure in the Admin Guide that says Ops Orders expire after a year unless its put in the PG as an Interim Order, revised as a new OO, etc. yet in recent exams the Ops Orders have held up to challenges despite many of them being over a year old?
As for Captain Ponytail writing an exam for everyone to fail, thats is the idea of pretty much every exam ever, they don't just hand out promotions. When you were in the academy they wanted to push everyone through and spoonfeed you everything on their exams, promotional exams are the opposite, they always go to obscure nonsense to trip you up. If its in the book, know it, no excuses.
No question adjustments means the exam has to be somewhat fair, but would have to imagine extremely difficult like any Lieutenant exam should be. Also before the 19 adjustments on the 2011 Lieutenants' exam I am not sure how many passed on the original proposed answer key? The final list was over 600 after 19 adjustments, so is it just possible "the elite 128" would be similar to the proposed answer key passer number on the 2011 exam? Difference is the 2011 exam had a whole lot of adjustments to inflate the list, so it was acknowledged as completely unfair and poorly written. And the 2003 exam had a raw score of 81 to make the list! So please spare me, "hardest exam ever". I didn't take it, but would have to imagine the only Lt exam in recent memory that was fair and not over the top crazy was the 2006 exam, yet it was extremely competitive in that almost half died on the list.
The Operations Order nonsense has to stop, what its not enough to have the Patrol Guide, the Penal Law, the Legal Bureau Bulletins, the Crime Complaint Reporting Reference Guide, and a few Administrative Guide procedures that pertain to the rank of Lieutenant? Also there is a procedure in the Admin Guide that says Ops Orders expire after a year unless its put in the PG as an Interim Order, revised as a new OO, etc. yet in recent exams the Ops Orders have held up to challenges despite many of them being over a year old?
As for Captain Ponytail writing an exam for everyone to fail, thats is the idea of pretty much every exam ever, they don't just hand out promotions. When you were in the academy they wanted to push everyone through and spoonfeed you everything on their exams, promotional exams are the opposite, they always go to obscure nonsense to trip you up. If its in the book, know it, no excuses.
No question adjustments means the exam has to be somewhat fair, but would have to imagine extremely difficult like any Lieutenant exam should be. Also before the 19 adjustments on the 2011 Lieutenants' exam I am not sure how many passed on the original proposed answer key? The final list was over 600 after 19 adjustments, so is it just possible "the elite 128" would be similar to the proposed answer key passer number on the 2011 exam? Difference is the 2011 exam had a whole lot of adjustments to inflate the list, so it was acknowledged as completely unfair and poorly written. And the 2003 exam had a raw score of 81 to make the list! So please spare me, "hardest exam ever". I didn't take it, but would have to imagine the only Lt exam in recent memory that was fair and not over the top crazy was the 2006 exam, yet it was extremely competitive in that almost half died on the list.
You didn't take it, but you take some issue with guys saying it was the hardest promotional exam given? Well thanks for your opinion sparky. you would still be a sergeant if you had to take this test
-- Edited by Cheaterpolice on Thursday 7th of April 2016 11:10:56 PM
geez to me it sounds like if you had to get an 81 to make the 2003 list, the it had to be pretty easy. Everyone passed! I'm sure it was much higher than 7%
12). Open the 2011 test back up and continue promoting off that list up to 65% score
While you are at why not just open the 2006 list back up? They cut that one with around 500 names remaining on the list well above the 70% passing grade.
__________________
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geez to me it sounds like if you had to get an 81 to make the 2003 list, the it had to be pretty easy. Everyone passed! I'm sure it was much higher than 7%
7% passing is not as abnormal as you may think, the 2007 Sgt's exam had only 300+ passers after multiple adjusted questions out of a bigger pool of exam takers. The Captain exams in 2012 and 2013 each had 60+ pass, the 2012 had no throwouts, 2013 had numerous just to inflate the list to over 60+. Sgts exams in 2006, 2008, 2009 all ranged between 600-800 passers out of how many thousands of exam takers?
Point is many of you guys got made off the 2011 Sgt exam which had 1700 passers, still most people failed, I am not disputing that, but compared to recent exams, it was a higher pass percentage. Many got made off a fair and reasonable exam when unfortunately most exams are far trickier and more difficult, so expecting that for a Lt exam is like expecting to pass if you got the gold braid at the academy.
-- Edited by PatrolGuideismyBible on Friday 8th of April 2016 12:31:38 PM
The Operations Order nonsense has to stop, what its not enough to have the Patrol Guide, the Penal Law, the Legal Bureau Bulletins, the Crime Complaint Reporting Reference Guide, and a few Administrative Guide procedures that pertain to the rank of Lieutenant? Also there is a procedure in the Admin Guide that says Ops Orders expire after a year unless its put in the PG as an Interim Order, revised as a new OO, etc. yet in recent exams the Ops Orders have held up to challenges despite many of them being over a year old?
As for Captain Ponytail writing an exam for everyone to fail, thats is the idea of pretty much every exam ever, they don't just hand out promotions. When you were in the academy they wanted to push everyone through and spoonfeed you everything on their exams, promotional exams are the opposite, they always go to obscure nonsense to trip you up. If its in the book, know it, no excuses.
No question adjustments means the exam has to be somewhat fair, but would have to imagine extremely difficult like any Lieutenant exam should be. Also before the 19 adjustments on the 2011 Lieutenants' exam I am not sure how many passed on the original proposed answer key? The final list was over 600 after 19 adjustments, so is it just possible "the elite 128" would be similar to the proposed answer key passer number on the 2011 exam? Difference is the 2011 exam had a whole lot of adjustments to inflate the list, so it was acknowledged as completely unfair and poorly written. And the 2003 exam had a raw score of 81 to make the list! So please spare me, "hardest exam ever". I didn't take it, but would have to imagine the only Lt exam in recent memory that was fair and not over the top crazy was the 2006 exam, yet it was extremely competitive in that almost half died on the list.
You didn't take it, but you take some issue with guys saying it was the hardest promotional exam given? Well thanks for your opinion sparky. you would still be a sergeant if you had to take this test
-- Edited by Cheaterpolice on Thursday 7th of April 2016 11:10:56 PM
If you say so, but trying to be among the top 200 people is all I had to do, I think I would have found a way as I have before. Regardless, the next exam will come sooner rather than later and now you will have to compete with many of top scorers off the 2013 exam, so dust yourself off and try again
The Operations Order nonsense has to stop, what its not enough to have the Patrol Guide, the Penal Law, the Legal Bureau Bulletins, the Crime Complaint Reporting Reference Guide, and a few Administrative Guide procedures that pertain to the rank of Lieutenant? Also there is a procedure in the Admin Guide that says Ops Orders expire after a year unless its put in the PG as an Interim Order, revised as a new OO, etc. yet in recent exams the Ops Orders have held up to challenges despite many of them being over a year old?
As for Captain Ponytail writing an exam for everyone to fail, thats is the idea of pretty much every exam ever, they don't just hand out promotions. When you were in the academy they wanted to push everyone through and spoonfeed you everything on their exams, promotional exams are the opposite, they always go to obscure nonsense to trip you up. If its in the book, know it, no excuses.
No question adjustments means the exam has to be somewhat fair, but would have to imagine extremely difficult like any Lieutenant exam should be. Also before the 19 adjustments on the 2011 Lieutenants' exam I am not sure how many passed on the original proposed answer key? The final list was over 600 after 19 adjustments, so is it just possible "the elite 128" would be similar to the proposed answer key passer number on the 2011 exam? Difference is the 2011 exam had a whole lot of adjustments to inflate the list, so it was acknowledged as completely unfair and poorly written. And the 2003 exam had a raw score of 81 to make the list! So please spare me, "hardest exam ever". I didn't take it, but would have to imagine the only Lt exam in recent memory that was fair and not over the top crazy was the 2006 exam, yet it was extremely competitive in that almost half died on the list.
You didn't take it, but you take some issue with guys saying it was the hardest promotional exam given? Well thanks for your opinion sparky. you would still be a sergeant if you had to take this test
-- Edited by Cheaterpolice on Thursday 7th of April 2016 11:10:56 PM
If you say so, but trying to be among the top 200 people is all I had to do, I think I would have found a way as I have before. Regardless, the next exam will come sooner rather than later and now you will have to compete with many of top scorers off the 2013 exam, so dust yourself off and try again
Don't worry cupcake. The next time I try again will be for the captains test. But thanks for finding the time to gently imply that the people here are a bunch of crybabies. It's good to know that you are smarter than them, and that while the test was hard you would have no problem passing it. Even tho you didn't actually take it. But you are just that smart. Thanks for sharing.
A lot of selfishness... Throw out an entire list of people who passed on Origional test day.? How is this still coming out of cops mouths... Don't act like you just want a curve and no intention of tossing the list for jealously....
THE ONLY PEOPLE THE MAKE UP TEST TAKES HAD AN IMPACT ON WAS YHE ORIGIONAL PASSERS.... They bumped me down lots of names and I hope this gets fixed... Not all of them scammed either.
The make ups did NOT effect the failers... Stop the lying that their was cheating on Origional test day..
Take your L like a man! Or you will breed entitlement to your children, set an example.
They should curve it so that 65 above would make the list. Then if ppl at 60 to 65 sued too, then city should curve it again. And so on...Life should be fair for everyone!
They should curve it so that 65 above would make the list. Then if ppl at 60 to 65 sued too, then city should curve it again. And so on...Life should be fair for everyone!
People actually believe this. Lol. This job is going to $h!T
the basis of their lawsuit is that the tvb was corrupted and it didn't give a fair analysis/explanation for not changing some of the answers....
That sounds like a cool story, except it also sounds like you didn't read the federal court complaint that was filed. The TVB wasn't mentioned even once in it.
They can have whatever stance they want, but if they don't report it to the judge, it doesn't exist in the lawsuit.
You didn't take it, but you take some issue with guys saying it was the hardest promotional exam given? Well thanks for your opinion sparky. you would still be a sergeant if you had to take this test
-- Edited by Cheaterpolice on Thursday 7th of April 2016 11:10:56 PM
If you say so, but trying to be among the top 200 people is all I had to do, I think I would have found a way as I have before. Regardless, the next exam will come sooner rather than later and now you will have to compete with many of top scorers off the 2013 exam, so dust yourself off and try again
I can perhaps agree in this Lt Exam being the hardest Lt Exam ever in having the smallest list with no adjustments, but hardest promtional exam ever? That is a bold statement from many that only took the 2011 Sgt Exam before this exam.
2003 Lt exam had a 81 raw score to pass, 2011 had 19 adjustments to get a list of 600+ but before adjustments how many honestly passed that mess? Possibly even less than the 2015 exam with no adjustments?
2007 Sgt exam 300 passers out several thousand and had adjustments?!?!?!? 2010 Captains Exam had 150 passers but had 15 adjustments. 2012 Captains Exam 64 passers with no adjustments, 2013 Captains Exam 63 passers with 5 adjustments?
So you can make a case for 2015 Lt exam being the most difficult exam ever, but its not as clean cut when other exams had smaller pass percentages with adjustments or had a lot of adjustments to inflate an exam that was near impossible to pass.
And good luck with your Captain exam, the last one had nearly 120 people pass with few adjustments, most are much more messed up. Glad I am done taking these terrible exams with make up takers getting unfair advantages.
You didn't take it, but you take some issue with guys saying it was the hardest promotional exam given? Well thanks for your opinion sparky. you would still be a sergeant if you had to take this test
-- Edited by Cheaterpolice on Thursday 7th of April 2016 11:10:56 PM
If you say so, but trying to be among the top 200 people is all I had to do, I think I would have found a way as I have before. Regardless, the next exam will come sooner rather than later and now you will have to compete with many of top scorers off the 2013 exam, so dust yourself off and try again
I can perhaps agree in this Lt Exam being the hardest Lt Exam ever in having the smallest list with no adjustments, but hardest promtional exam ever? That is a bold statement from many that only took the 2011 Sgt Exam before this exam.
2003 Lt exam had a 81 raw score to pass, 2011 had 19 adjustments to get a list of 600+ but before adjustments how many honestly passed that mess? Possibly even less than the 2015 exam with no adjustments?
2007 Sgt exam 300 passers out several thousand and had adjustments?!?!?!? 2010 Captains Exam had 150 passers but had 15 adjustments. 2012 Captains Exam 64 passers with no adjustments, 2013 Captains Exam 63 passers with 5 adjustments?
So you can make a case for 2015 Lt exam being the most difficult exam ever, but its not as clean cut when other exams had smaller pass percentages with adjustments or had a lot of adjustments to inflate an exam that was near impossible to pass.
And good luck with your Captain exam, the last one had nearly 120 people pass with few adjustments, most are much more messed up. Glad I am done taking these terrible exams with make up takers getting unfair advantages.
2011 Lt exam had a little over 240 passers before changes. Don't know what was the deal with that 2007 exam and why the passing rate was so low, if true, but i remember taking several sergeant rewrites from 07-09 given by the key, I also took the 2011 Lt rewrite. They were very difficult but no comparison to this one. I agree that he 2011 sergeant exam was a walk in the park. The 2013 sergeants exam had fairly easy questions too, people just got thrown off with those research questions. Maybe not the hardest test EVER but definitely in the top 5 and that's comparing it to captains exams, which have way less amount of test takers and are harder in general.
If you remember there was a Sgt Exam in 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 4 years in ROW!!! Why? Very small lists, a few hundred out of several thousand would actually pass. The 2007 Sgt exam had a little over 300 people pass with adjustments. So the 2007 Sgt exam is probably the hardest if you go by pass percentage and list size.
2015 Lt exam could be viewed as more difficult under the same standards ignoring the 81+ raw score in 2003 or 19 adjustments on a mess of a 2011 Lt exam. Captains exams are always difficult, 2013 had the smallest list at 63 passers with adjustments where 2012 had 64 passers with NO adjustments. 2010 Captain had 15 changes, but a list of around 150, so it was a mess.
So going by the standard of smallest pass percentage/smallest lists: 2007 Sgt, 2015 Lt, and 2013 Captain would have to be the hardest based on that standard, but I highly doubt you can find a single person that managed to take all of them to let you know and directly compare.
They cut that one with around 500 names remaining on the list well above the 70% passing grade. 
