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NYPD74 · Senior Member

Soooooo

NYPD74 · Senior Member

RE: Question #100 Protest

NYG37 · Senior Member

Bottom line you can't tell me that my decision is wrong because it don't jive with what dcas or the job picked for the answer. There's no reference to where they can point to and say this is why this answer is CORRECT and you're WRONG.

NYPD74 · Senior Member

You mean to tell me you protested all the questions on your psychological entry exam based on there was no point of reference?

"The test may also include questions which require the use of any of the following abilities:"

It's right there!!!!!!

-- Edited by NYPD74 on Wednesday 23rd of November 2011 01:53:18 PM

Waaaahhh · Veteran Member

Damn, I've never felt like such a dummy for getting an answer right. I put A for 100. Just cuz I've been given permission to do work on ot as well as assign cops to help me for assignments that were super important. But what do I know, I got a 65...

NYG37 · Senior Member

You comparing apples and oranges. There's no way you'll tell me that my decision was any worse then the one you've made. You'd be making a completely different argument if you was on the other side.

Mes018 · Senior Member

NYPD74 wrote:
You mean to tell me you protested all the questions on your psychological entry exam based on there was no point of reference?

"The test may also include questions which require the use of any of the following abilities:"

It's right there!!!!!!

-- Edited by NYPD74 on Wednesday 23rd of November 2011 01:53:18 PM

Ugh. I think your missing my point. For this question there WAS a point of reference. They can say the right answer is to use your judgment and authorize ot all they want. The patrol guide says you can't. 205-17 DEFINITION OVERTIME: a. NON-ORDERED - Extension of scheduled tour of duty by 15 minutes or more to prevent interruption of services being performed, e.g., processing an arrest, aided case, court appearance, etc. Non-ordered overtime is not authorized for administrative duties at any level. b. ORDERED - Extra duty required for on-going or future operational situations, demonstrations, parades, etc., or overtime of an administrative nature for extra duty required of an on-going or future operational situation. (May only be authorized by Police Commissioner, First Deputy Commissioner or Chief of Department). c. EMERGENCY ORDERED - Extra duty performed in an emergency when work schedules are suspended by Department order, due to large-scale disorders or disasters. (May only be authorized by Police Commissioner, First Deputy Commissioner or Chief of Department). Part B of the definition. As you said - it's right there!!! (point of reference that is. The question never said to answer this question with complete disregard for any of the reference material and base it solely on personal judgement)

RISING IDIOT · Senior Member

No point in arguing with each other. Everyone is going to protest different questions. Concentrate on writing an articulate, intelligent protests. I got #100 "DCAS right" but I got plenty of others wrong.

Mes018 · Senior Member

The bottom line is that the point of many of these threads, including this one, is to collectively come up with ideas on why and how a question can be protested. If you got it correct already, then good for you. Worry about different questions. Don't stick up for dcas answers in order to discourage people from protesting a question you got right. The only reason I see for someone to do that is because they are worried people are going to pick up some points and move ahead of them on the list.

NYPD74 · Senior Member

I want to make it known, I'm not trying to bust anyone's chops or here to be a troll and annoy anyone. Like the majority, I probably failed, in fact I'm certain I failed. I'm I upset with the exam? Not entirely because with the department I'm always expecting some type of trickery.

Now back to the "judgement" question. First the question didn't refer to "As per P.G 2xx-xx." Second, I never worked in payroll but I'll assume there's a huge list of OT codes which apply to different scenarios which are already pre-approved by the PC. If a certain scenarios arises the corresponding code will apply to the situation. I believe the PG procedure just points out not anyone can arbitrarily give out OT based on anything expect for certain individuals.

That's my point about this question and all judgement questions. There are times we can't always refer to the patrol guide. Because in the past the exam has put us in robot mode, our blinders are on and that's all we are focusing on. P.G. this, P.G that...

If anyone is that stubborn to realize that, then this test just put a spotlight on your rational. I just believe DCAS is going in a new direction with all LT and Captains exams and they're just testing you on a different level.

Best of luck to everyone with all of their protest questions!!

Stay safe and sane.

NYG37 · Senior Member

Again, its up to the debate, no one can say that the answer i chose is wrong or right. Its a judgement call.

infinity · Senior Member

I agree with you that sometimes you do not refer to the manual, but on the exam before the questions stated, there should have been some type of directions stating the patrol guide does not play a role in the following questions.

nycop80 · Guru

If a question doesnt direct you to a patrol guide section it doesn't matter. Patrol guide still holds because it is a point of reference for the exam. 205-17 clearly states rules on assigning Ot. It doesn't matter what ot code is used. It is a valid argument.

Mrclean · Member

i got A for 15...

oneadditional · Guru

Great argument MESO18. Protest it.

Mes018 · Senior Member

Thanks. I will be. Not for me, but for the guys and girls who are close. I'm too far out because I didn't put any time into it. Didn't want it bad enough. But I lost some quality drinking time with some friends because they spent more than half the year studying and feel I might be able to help them out. Getting some of these guys promoted will also move me up the seniority list too. Lol

nycop80 · Guru

very nice mes018. You are a stand up guy.

18and1 · Senior Member

I'm up to a 67%. Thanks mes018!

technocrat · Veteran Member

working in the puzzle palace, i can tell you this, anything from the mayor's office that was addressed to my boss and subsequently dropped on my lap would without a doubt be handled by myself. nothing that sensitive would be delegated. in fact the CO would be sitting with me personally going over the #s. so the fact that we're debating the choices of delegating vs handling it yourself is a moot point. double answer on a minimum. i cant see anyone debating the issue without a specific book to refer to as guidance. hence leaving my answer as well as anyone else's (constructed logically) is difficult to refute.

nycop80 · Guru

agreed

8-32 Sgt · Member

Didn't the "roll up the sleeves and do it yourself" answer include delegating some of your other responsibilities to subordinates so you could focus on the project? That's why I chose C. A and C both involved delegation.

nycop80 · Guru

Yes it did. It said to delegate some resposibitiez

PatrolGuideismyBible · Guru

The cutting corners choice wasn't as bad either. I said something more like, do the job get it done but cut corners and leave you the finishing touches. You are still getting what needs to be done completed without violating rules. Also it said the assignment was already overdue, so it was time sensitive. So would you color coordinate a package lets say or just give black and white documents? Both are complete.

100 should be a throw out for everyone or at least a triple answer. Telling the XO you are not the man for the job can't be right, whatever choice that is. But the "correct" answer blatantly violates the book giving the lt extra powers in authorizing administrative overtime that he does not have. Also it says in the book somewhere else that administrative overtime is never authorized by anyone.

nycop80 · Guru

No. It says admin ot can be done but has to be ordered and only by 3 wise men

sharpie973 · Veteran Member

...

-- Edited by sharpie973 on Tuesday 9th of September 2014 02:49:10 PM

sharpie973 · Veteran Member

NYPD74 wrote:
Below is taken right of out of the application.
The test may also include questions which require the use of any of the following abilities:

Analytical Thinking: Analyzing information and using logic to address specific work-related issues and
problems; involves the identification of problems, not implementation of solutions.

Judgment & Decision-Making: Reviewing information to develop and evaluate the relative costs and benefits
of potential solutions to problems and choosing the most appropriate one; implementing a course of action
determined by thinking analytically. While similar to Planning & Organizing, Judgment and Decision-Making
are typically applied over a shorter time frame.

Planning & Organizing: Establishing a method of execution to accomplish a specific goal over an extended
period of time; determining appropriate assignments and allocation of resources.

Management of Personnel Resources: Motivating, developing and directing people as they work, identifying
the best people for the job; managing employees needed to accomplish tasks.

Time Management: Managing ones time and the time of others in order to promote effective use of work
hours.

Stress Tolerance: Accepting criticism and dealing calmly and effectively with high stress situations.
Written Comprehension: Understanding the information and ideas presented in written sentences and
paragraphs in work-related documents.

Written Expression: Appropriately communicating information and ideas in written words and sentences so
intended audience will understand.

Persuading & Influencing Others: Causing others to change or modify their opinions, views or behaviors
using a variety of strategies.

Conflict Resolution: Negotiating with others to resolve grievances or conflicts and handle complaints by
developing a constructive solution.

Concern For Others: Acting in a manner sensitive to others needs and feelings while being understanding and
helpful on the job; showing consideration.

Teamwork: Developing mutual trust and cooperation while working together toward the accomplishment of
a common goal or outcome.

Integrity: Acting in an honest and ethical manner.
Dependability: Fulfilling obligations and acting in a reliable, responsible and dependable manner.

Initiative & Independence: Displaying a willingness to take on additional responsibilities and challenges, while
developing ones ways of doing things and guiding oneself with little or no supervision.

Attention to Detail: Being careful about detail and thorough in completing work tasks.

Self Control: Maintaining composure, keeping emotions in check, controlling anger and avoiding aggressive
behavior, even in very difficult situations.

Were we suppose to be studying to be Shaolin monks or police lieutenants?

okeedokee · Veteran Member

Once you grab the pebble from my hand, then you will understand.

-- Edited by okeedokee on Tuesday 29th of November 2011 08:09:48 PM

PatrolGuideismyBible · Guru

The cutting corners one never said you didn't complete the work. It simply said you left out the "extra finishing touches". Which also makes sense since I think it said this project was already overdue. It doesn't say you are doing a poor job or an incomplete job, it just says you are leaving out the extra polish or fluff due to time constraints. Doesn't sound wrong either. A "get the job done any way you can" answer

The "digging in" sounded good too bc I think it also has you delegating some work, but you are taking the bulk of the responsibility. A "personal responsibility" answer.

The "correct" answer conflicted with the PG, so its a BS answer. Should win that challenge. Lt's simply cannot authorize OT in the PG. Cannot be "correct"

The only other answer that I think could not be right was the "tell the XO you are unable to perform the task". I mean I don't think the job is looking for quitters, they are for leaders, go getters, etc.

Hoping this one has a triple answer...

SCANTRON DETECTIVE · Member

Guys, 100 was a ground ball. They wanted to see if you would make a command decision and do what needed to be done to complete the job. This will not be a throw out or double

PatrolGuideismyBible · Guru

I know its a judgement question, but it would be very inconsistent from past exams where they lock you into the correct answer based on what it says in the Patrol Guide when the "correct" answer was the only one the violated PG procedures. Should be at minimum a double answer, possibly even a triple answer.

NextLtTest · Senior Member

SCANTRON DETECTIVE wrote:

Guys, 100 was a ground ball. They wanted to see if you would make a command decision and do what needed to be done to complete the job. This will not be a throw out or double

I have said this before, if 2500 people answered C for question 100, but the actual answer was A, then there was obviously a problem with the question. DCAS cannot ignore the majority, the question was a bad one and should be a double answer. It will not be thrown out, like everyone is fond of saying, because some of the answers were still wrong.

nycop80 · Guru

I agree NextLttest, It will be at least double answer.

really · Member

if the supervisor in stem of the question tells you to delegate the work, then doing it yourself would contradict a lawful order. however if Dcas decided one answer was incorrect for cutting corners and Dcas decided the other answer was also wrong because you are not delegating, then we should aim to have the whole question thrown out. that seems the most fair. if the "correct" answer is flawed and we are not authorized to give admin ot, then the other answers are wrong in their own right for different reasons. it should be thrown out!

-- Edited by really on Wednesday 30th of November 2011 02:40:20 AM

HabidasheryAuto · Senior Member

Its not a lawful order because lieut's CANNOT authorize administrative overtime. Period.

really · Member

no, you misunderstood my sentence. rolling up your sleeves and doing it yourself, would contradict the stem of the question. he wanted you to "delegate" not do it yourself.

nycop80 · Guru

no, he just wanted the job done. But, this will definitely be out.

really · Member

still positive "delegate" or an identical synonym was placed in the stem to rule out the 'do it yourself' answer. i'm proposing that all the answers are incorrect one way or another. the end

really · Member

-- Edited by really on Wednesday 30th of November 2011 04:20:06 AM

8-32 Sgt · Member

authorizing o/t doesn't just go against the patrol guide, it's misconduct.

8-32 Sgt · Member

yea, a ground ball down the line for a double (answer).

really · Member

triple answer! dcas found something wrong with the other 3 answers when they wrote the test, so all the answers should be ng.