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smartcookie · Senior Member

RE: My attempt at an unbiased review

HB · Senior Member

Lol i gave him the day thinking that as a good supv u have to realize family comes first and u need to be flexible with ur cops when needed. See what i mean? Whos to say im wrong n ur right? Its a judgement call. Its not a black or white area. Oh and btw rising star had a Question just like that and the answer was give him the day.

smartcookie · Senior Member

HB wrote:
Lol i gave him the day thinking that as a good supv u have to realize family comes first and u need to be flexible with ur cops when needed. See what i mean? Whos to say im wrong n ur right? Its a judgement call. Its not a black or white area. Oh and btw rising star had a Question just like that and the answer was give him the day.

I agree with you, in reality, I would have given him the day and taken the heat for it. But in exam world, when the question tells you that there is a Finest message stating no excusals, they do not want the answer that would go against a Dept directive.

unborn · Guru

smartcookie wrote:

I agree with you, in reality, I would have given him the day and taken the heat for it. But in exam world, when the question tells you that there is a Finest message stating no excusals, they do not want the answer that would go against a Dept directive.

So the other questions that lead you to ignore corruption allegations and EEO issues don't go against department directives?

HB · Senior Member

EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THOSE QUESTIONS WENT AGAINST DEPT DIRECTIVES AND POLICIES HELLOOOO. LOL

Shhh · Veteran Member

I thought, "think TEAM" and conferred with his lt. Lol.

-- Edited by Shhh on Sunday 30th of October 2011 03:57:59 PM

unborn · Guru

HB wrote:
EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THOSE QUESTIONS WENT AGAINST DEPT DIRECTIVES AND POLICIES HELLOOOO. LOL

My point exactly. DCAS does not approve of your all-caps response.

unborn · Guru

smartcookie wrote:
I agree with Gamblor. To be honest, even though it was a total curveball, this test was more indicative of what people have been saying for years regarding promotional exams- that the exam should test for things that a LT actually does! The fact is, writing, English and spelling are atrocious out there, and it is important for a boss to have a clue as to what decision he/she should be making in a given situation. Isn't that what most people have been complaining about for years- that the tests are just a regurgitation of the Patrol Guide? I think people are mad at the fact that they committed so many months to memorizing procedures and that is not all that was tested. I feel for those people, but I am glad that this test paved the way for change in asking managerial questions as well as more math and grammar. Good luck to all!

Yeah this exam tested what you really need to know out there. I have no clue how they're going to grade these judgement questions but I saw several questions that jumped out as double-answers and others that had no right answer (like the 16-year-old PINS). Were the exam writers sloppy, or made that mistake intentionally so they can throw a few questions out, or were they too busy stroking themselves trying to write insane questions about people stealing toilet paper. Because that's very important.

smartcookie · Senior Member

unborn wrote:
smartcookie wrote:

I agree with you, in reality, I would have given him the day and taken the heat for it. But in exam world, when the question tells you that there is a Finest message stating no excusals, they do not want the answer that would go against a Dept directive.
So the other questions that lead you to ignore corruption allegations and EEO issues don't go against department directives?

I was talking specifically about the Finest message being a Dept directive. I am not saying that all of the questions were perfect, by any means.

smartcookie · Senior Member

double post

-- Edited by smartcookie on Sunday 30th of October 2011 04:24:52 PM

smartcookie · Senior Member

unborn wrote:
smartcookie wrote:
I agree with Gamblor. To be honest, even though it was a total curveball, this test was more indicative of what people have been saying for years regarding promotional exams- that the exam should test for things that a LT actually does! The fact is, writing, English and spelling are atrocious out there, and it is important for a boss to have a clue as to what decision he/she should be making in a given situation. Isn't that what most people have been complaining about for years- that the tests are just a regurgitation of the Patrol Guide? I think people are mad at the fact that they committed so many months to memorizing procedures and that is not all that was tested. I feel for those people, but I am glad that this test paved the way for change in asking managerial questions as well as more math and grammar. Good luck to all!
Yeah this exam tested what you really need to know out there. I have no clue how they're going to grade these judgement questions but I saw several questions that jumped out as double-answers and others that had no right answer (like the 16-year-old PINS). Were the exam writers sloppy, or made that mistake intentionally so they can throw a few questions out, or were they too busy stroking themselves trying to write insane questions about people stealing toilet paper. Because that's very important.

I think the managerial type questions help give points to people who did not memorize the PG. And the grammar, reading comprehension and math questions test skills that are important in leaders of law enforcement.

unborn · Guru

Which has nothing to do with what I said. The job has tried "experimental" tests and bombed before. If they wanted to transition towards something like this, I would say 7 judgement and 3 moderately difficult math/grammar questions would make sense. 40% of the test being based off a book that only a criminal justice student might read is ridiculous.

Scantron · Veteran Member

Give the guy the day as per 200-02!

PatrolGuideismyBible · Guru

Even if they made this their experiment, it has been 5 years since the last Lieutenant's exam, the Olympics happen more frequently, you could be training for the Winter and Summer Olympics in the time it takes to give a Lt's exam and this is what they pull? This is an absolute disgrace.

Judgement questions would be more fair towards perhaps and entrance exam, but already are all police sgt's, so if our "judgement" is no good for this test, should we even be supervisors at all?

The PG questions went to many things that were a gray area that is not properly explained either in the actual question or the PG procedure they were referring to.

Changing the format did not give me enough time either. Every other exam, 15-30 in basket questions and the rest are just PG/LBB/PL/AG questions on technical knowledge where if it is worded properly, you either know it or you don't.

Now we get a lot of reading comprehension, grammar, vague math questions that doesn't explain exactly what they want to implement the correct math to solve the question, and finally opinion/judgement?

The reading comprehension was fair, but far more time consuming than your average PG question.

There will be a lawsuit on this test, it was an abomination. The exam writers often seemed to not understand what they were asking. Very odd. Many PG questions they could not point to a line in the book that makes something right or wrong (10-53 leaving the scene question, drug use for cause, aided with choking person, PINS question, many others)

FNM · Veteran Member

PatrolGuide I agree with you 100% The main issue that I have with this exam is that DCAS changed the rules without adding properly to the time needed to complete this exam. Even the easy PG questions thay were given were all time consuming. You had only a very small handfull of PG questions total that were short pops for questions. In all prior exams you ever looked at, for every one very long time consuming question given will be followed shortly by another short pop question to which enables a student to keep pace. I would have no problems with this exam if we were allocated the proper time frame to finish.

I do not want to play sour grapes that is not my intention, I 100% completely understand and respect all of the other Sergeants out there who are hoping for a lot of double answer throwouts so that they can get promoted off this list. However a lot of people including myself got stuck at the end not being able to finish the exam. Nobody here can honestly say that they were able to give the questions and the in-basket the amount of proper time necessary to properly complete it.

I made the mistake of doing the in-basket first, I am confident that I got a large majority of these questions right. However to do so, took me 2 and a half hours to do correctly. When I finished the in-basket I thought I was still doing ok with time, but this was only because I based this on my prior knowledge and practice on taking practice exams in the past. The exam I took on saturday however was not the exam I prepared for.

The exam needs to be thrown out and retaken with a 8 hour time limit. I am up for getting a class action lawsuit together now to get this piece of garbage exam thrown in the dust bin where it belongs. If anybody has ideas/suggestions of how we can go about doing this please privately message me or post your ideas up here.

For those who do not believe this can be done, FYI the 1993 Sergeants exam was a experimental exam and that was tossed.

NextLtTest · Senior Member

wereinbacklog wrote:
I personally believe this will be a repeat of the 2010 Captain exam.

What do u mean?

E D · Senior Member

He means, that exam had 7 throwouts, 7 Double answers, and 1 triple answer, for a total of 15 potential extra points.

E D · Senior Member

And I happen to agree

Scantron · Veteran Member

When they said they were going to test time management, part of that may have been the prioritizing the questions. With all of the questions weighted the same at one point each, the time consuming questions may have been put there to see if you would figure out to skip to the next one and get on with the rest so you didn't run out of time.

NextLtTest · Senior Member

smartcookie wrote:
HB wrote:
Lol i gave him the day thinking that as a good supv u have to realize family comes first and u need to be flexible with ur cops when needed. See what i mean? Whos to say im wrong n ur right? Its a judgement call. Its not a black or white area. Oh and btw rising star had a Question just like that and the answer was give him the day.
I agree with you, in reality, I would have given him the day and taken the heat for it. But in exam world, when the question tells you that there is a Finest message stating no excusals, they do not want the answer that would go against a Dept directive.

Yes I would give him the day too. But when vorbeck was my c.o. and he would take away three days from me for giving an eday against his orders then, no, you do not get the eday, I need to see my kids too. It is on the cop to do what he needs to and not show up.

Each1Teach1 · Newbie

I can respect what you wrote however, my concern has more to do with the "political motives" behind this one. There's so much more to this that goes beyond Sergeants. For example, Rising Star recommended a particular "Management" style book to their students, at a cost of $125.00. The exam for the first time in history "just happened" to contained a good percentage of questions that were addressed in this particular book? So you believe that given the credentials and experience of the both the Fast Track and The Key instructors, "Rising Star" just happened to be the school that correctly predicted "the never seen or heard of before?" I don't buy that! My first recommendation would be for the owners of both Fast Track and The Key, to file a personal complaint with DCAS. Sounds to me as if some forces somewhere are trying to bring down the present promotional schools in the hopes of creating ones in which "specific people" can be a part of "making that money." Nevertheless, in a case like this strategically you may be better off fighting for a "CURVE." Getting DCAS to throw out a certain amount of questions, and generating a list based on those stats. Why? If the test is voided, what is the length of time involved before the test will be re-issued? That would most likely require additional time and monies that people may no longer have to invest in this particular area. In addition, every time there's an exam, a law firm has to be hired and additional monies has to be unnecessarily spent because someone screwed up! Well if that's the case, there would be too much money involved not to ensure that there's always a screw up. One of the complaints I had concerned the In Basket. I've never seen any roll call that didn't contain the date and the platoon. I wasted so much time trying to figure out who I was and the tour I was working. That is not NYPD reality concerning roll calls and so I'm not sure what the point of that whole concept was. For me the bottom line is, I believe I understand the thought pattern behind administering that form of an exam. However, that exam was geared more towards the skills of a Teacher/Professor and not a Police Lieutenant. STAY STRONG SERGEANTS. THINGS WILL WORK OUT FOR THE BEST.

-- Edited by Each1Teach1 on Wednesday 2nd of November 2011 12:58:23 PM

sharpie973 · Veteran Member

So much controversy for a promotional test, I dont get it. The test should have followed the normal protocols that have been used for the last several years. Why change it now? Is this Proctor and Gamble, wtf? I have no problems with the examiners testing my math as long as it is within the realm of work. Most productive, for what fu*king criteria? Did they want the total amount for a time period or an average per officer? I have five years left; Im I going to study for the next lieutenants exam..for what? Im on the last list and it has taken five years to get to about 640. Im better off retiring and getting an assistant manager job at McDonalds. At least there if I have a crying or larcenous employee, I could just fire their ass!