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Post Info TOPIC: Thrown out
FNM


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Thrown out


What are the chances of getting this exam thrown out?  Has anything like this ever happened before.  When I called the SBA today they said that the Police Academys website had some of those leadership questions on some of there lessons.  I didnt know that.

In any event this exam was a major deviation from any other promotional exam that has ever occured before.  The amount of time needed to properly take this exam is a lot longer than any other that has occured before.  In my opinion the amount of time needed to take this exam is more than the 6 hours allocated to do so.  In addition, students who studied based there practices on those prior exams, of which none came close to this one.



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We all need to send in our Protest Forms. Dont just assume someone else is going to do it. SEND IT IN EVEN IF YOU MAY NOT BE ABLE TO MAKE IT!!!!!

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FNM wrote:

What are the chances of getting this exam thrown out?  Has anything like this ever happened before.  When I called the SBA today they said that the Police Academys website had some of those leadership questions on some of there lessons.  I didnt know that.

In any event this exam was a major deviation from any other promotional exam that has ever occured before.  The amount of time needed to properly take this exam is a lot longer than any other that has occured before.  In my opinion the amount of time needed to take this exam is more than the 6 hours allocated to do so.  In addition, students who studied based there practices on those prior exams, of which none came close to this one.


 it will never get thrown out, most likely many throwouts/double answers.



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RUMOR MILL IS 100 % RIGHT. MAIL IN YOUR PROTEST SLIP EVEN IF YOU CAN'T MAKE IT. I DID MINE TODAY. LET'S BE REAL, IN ALL LIKELIHOOD THE TEST WILL NOT BE THROWN OUT. BUT AS WEREINBACKLOG SAID, THERE WILL BE MANY THROWOUTS AND DOUBLE ANSWERS. ITS UP TO US TO DO THAT, DO NOT ASSUME AND WAIT FOR THE NEXT GUY TO DO IT. NUMBERS ARE POWER

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FNM


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Once the official answer key comes out, those who don't are going to sue. There is going to be lawsuits involved. The exam was so much different than any other exam given prior, and the time allocated to be able to finish the exam in a proper manner was not given.

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What will the lawsuit mean? To throw out an exam or have certain portions of it threwn out?

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JustWonderin wrote:

RUMOR MILL IS 100 % RIGHT. MAIL IN YOUR PROTEST SLIP EVEN IF YOU CAN'T MAKE IT. I DID MINE TODAY. LET'S BE REAL, IN ALL LIKELIHOOD THE TEST WILL NOT BE THROWN OUT. BUT AS WEREINBACKLOG SAID, THERE WILL BE MANY THROWOUTS AND DOUBLE ANSWERS. ITS UP TO US TO DO THAT, DO NOT ASSUME AND WAIT FOR THE NEXT GUY TO DO IT. NUMBERS ARE POWER


 Totally agree, i think approximately 25 questions can be protested.



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FNM


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To get the entire exam dismissed. For those who believe this won't or cannot happen I refer to the 1993 Sergeants exam which was a experimental exam that the department used which got tossed. The NYPD has wanted for years to come up with and try to use a different way of administering promotional exams but has not found a proper way to do so. There are reasons a sound lawyer can look at as to why this exam should be dismissed. Some of which include.

1) The exam was a very large deviation from any other prior Lieutenants exam and was very misleading towards those who studied.
2) The amount of time given to properly complete the exam was not given. Any good lawyer who compares all the other prior Lieutenants exams to this one will be able to easily point out the fact that because this exam was unlike any other prior to it, the amount of time required to complete the exam should have been raised to probably 8 hours. If six hours was given as a appropriate time frame for prior exams, and that is what others who were studying were going by, and test takers are instead given a exam that involved questions which were a lot longer, and a in-basket which required a lot more time/research to come up with the proper answer than the amount of time given to complete the exam should have been larger. For example, on prior promotional exams, only one roll call was given, in this one there was four. That means for each question answered involved approximately four times the amount of time needed to properly finsih each question. A example of how this messed up a lot of us test takers is for those who used the strategy of waiting to take the in-basket portion at the end. Now all of us studiers have performed, and looked at/researched prior in-baskets and used that as our study guide to help us. So after performing all of these practice in-baskets a good test taker will come to the conclusion that on average it takes them approximately a hour- an hour in a half to complete any in-basket. However when the test taker takes the exam and allocates his hour and a half to do the in-basket portion at the end, not enough time is left to properly complete it. How many people out there had to rush thru the in-basket at the end? A lot of us? I made the mistake of doing the in-basket portion first and, although I did well on it, it took me a good two hours to do so. Because of this I did not have enough time to finish the exam in the proper fashion.
3) A lot of the "leadership" based questions purposely went against well known department patrol guide proceedures. We all know that the street world is different from the book world, however the reason why exam questions are supposed to lock you into a specific proceedure is so that there can only be one answer. This is the only way that a question can be answered that has only one right answer.
4) For those individuals who's native tongue is not english, can state that the exam was not fair towards them. This is especially true when one looks at the ratio between english based questions on prior exams, compared to this one. How many english questions were asked on prior exams? How many were asked on this one? If that ratio was a lot smaller it is one thing, as than someone who is taking the test will be aware of the fact that they need to make up for any proficiencies that they have.
5)

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Can the SBA get involved? They may not care since it's about moving on to another rank and leaving their union. But I think they need to back us up on this. We pay dues for things like this dont we. We dont pay all that money for a few SBA cards and a "pair" of boots (or should I say 2 black boots)

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FNM


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I called the SBA today and they were no help. The guy I spoke with said he thought the test was fair, I don't know what test he tooks but out of most people I spoke to he is in the minority. When I mentioned to him that the NYPD website with the study guide material didnt mention anything about leadership questions being on the exam he told me that wasn't true, can anyone verify this? I printed out and used to website study material questions between 202-207 and I didnt see any of this. I stopped using this material as I found the questions at the end of the chapter very easy, and I had a lot of material from different schools. How do others feel about those academy questions? I mean they were very easy and unlike any of the questions that we received on the exam, and that is why I barely bothered with them.

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HB


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SBA will not help. They dont want to lose the Union Dues that we pay them. Fact!

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FNM


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Once the list comes out those who do not make it, i being one of them due to the fact that I was one of many who not given the correct amount of time needed to finish the exam in the proper fashion need to get a class action lawsuit to get this exam dismissed.

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Sign me up.

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The academy material had no such thing.......i should know !!



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The SBA is of no help when it comes to anything! They are so useless in any situation i ever needed them for so im not suprised. But yet this useless regime that is in place keeps getting re-elected so the blame falls on the sergeants for voting that way. Apparently the majority never needed anything from them cuz if u did u would be left hung out to dry as well



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FNM


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Ok so if the academy material had no such "guidance" of what was going to be on this exam, and this is the official website of the department wouldn't that be grounds to get the exam dismissed in of and by itself?

This was a half blind exam, half of the exam was based on knowledge of the patrol guide, and the other half was based on blind material that all of us had no way of being able to prepare for.

All of us here are Sergeants so a majority of us have a high level of education, most with Bachelors degree. Ha anyone ever taken a exam in there life, whatever it might be, SAT,LSAT, a final, a Nassau or Suffolk PD exam without having a general idea of what would be asked?

Anybody who prepared for the LT's exam studied with the intention that 95% of the material would be based off of PG questions and that was not the case.

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Those writing the material for the sgt/lt prep courses given by the academy have absolutely no knowledge of what will be on that exam.  They have just as much info of what will be on it as the other schools do.  DCAS doesnt share it's intentions with this Department



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In order for the exam to be thrown out, the class action lawsuit has to be initiated before DCAS certifies the list. Once it's certified, they will be able to promote from the new list. Now is the time to bring about a lawsuit. They will not be able to move forward with publishing or promoting off new list until matter is resolved in court. 



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I'm up for it. if someone knows how to start we need to get together.

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nys finest wrote:

In order for the exam to be thrown out, the class action lawsuit has to be initiated before DCAS certifies the list. Once it's certified, they will be able to promote from the new list. Now is the time to bring about a lawsuit. They will not be able to move forward with publishing or promoting off new list until matter is resolved in court. 


 Doubt exam will be thrown out, they sent an admended NOE giving us d heads up.  The problem is there wasn't any guidance on how to answer a judgement question.  Our best bet is 2 protest the hell out of d test and get those questions either thrown out or made into double answers.  



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He probably didn't take the exam and doesn't care. He's very comfortable in his office off of patrol, away from the bs. I say put him name on blast and let the membership decide if they will re-elect him to his coushy post or let him be reminded of how if feels to be in a precinct dealing with %#@! everyday.  



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FNM


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ok so if DCAS created this nonsense and not the department than we should have a even stronger case to get this crap dismissed. how can we go about doing this? The time to act is now than? Does anyone have any ideas, I am up for helping in anyway possible.

Does anybody know a lawyer to go to? How can we get a copy of the exam?

Seriously this thing needs to be stopped. We all hate the fact of having to study again but that is better than the alternative of having a lot of us be left in the cold by having to take a blind exam.

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Double answers wouldn't be fair either. questions are open to each one of our interpretatio

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2010 Captains Exam:  15 throw outs/double answers.  It can get done.   We have to protest as many as we can to get a lot out.  We can all taste the lieutenant's promotion.  

- Stay thirsty my friends....



-- Edited by wileone on Tuesday 1st of November 2011 12:11:04 AM

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Although I do like pv$$y, I don't like the smell of a qwiff.

Stay thirsty my friends.....



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Exactly!

The union is supposed to work for the membership. That is what the dues are for. Heck who need a picnis or Christmas party? In the end being promoted will be more fruitful and put more money in your pocket to provide for your families. If enough of the membership continues to call and flood their mailbox, they will have to do something.

Where does it say SBA union dues are mandatory? If not, I say pull your money out, sign up for a SHAT or Kaplan prepatory class to be better prepared for the next exam.  



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Why don't you start by going to DCAS website and emailing the commissioner online to voice your concerns about the exam. Expose this catastrophy to the media and get a lawyer. All it takes is one lawsuit to stop DCAS in their tracks. 



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FNM


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ok so they sent out a NOE that the exam would be different, however did they adjust the time allowed to take this exam to make up for the change? Based on the majority of people not being able to finish the exam in a timely fashion the answer is no. When you have 95% of the Sergeants leaving when the bell rings, and a lot of them having to be yelled at by proctors to drop there pencils or have there scores nullified the answer is no.

The exam should be thrown out based on the fact that since they changed the exam completely around, this is a new type of exam and it is no longer proper to only give a 6 hour time limit. All of us passed exams before, has anybody ever seen so many people walking out when the bell rang when the test was over like that?


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Everyone should be mailing in their forms even if youre not planning to protest!!!!!!

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THE JOB IS ON THE LEVEL!!!



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nys finest wrote:

Exactly!

The union is supposed to work for the membership. That is what the dues are for. Heck who need a picnis or Christmas party? In the end being promoted will be more fruitful and put more money in your pocket to provide for your families. If enough of the membership continues to call and flood their mailbox, they will have to do something.

Where does it say SBA union dues are mandatory? If not, I say pull your money out, sign up for a SHAT or Kaplan prepatory class to be better prepared for the next exam.  


 Read my above post..sba has no balls and is totally scared or lazy to ever really fight for any of us when it comes down to it. I know from experience on more than one occasion. Best way to be represented when getting involved in anything on duty/ off duty/ or in a matter like this is go outside the dpeartment to a private attorney. Sba, department attorneys all work for the department so how hard are they really going to fight for you against the job or even dcas or whatever. A dept atty or an sba rep in with you during a GO-15 remains silent most of the time. A private lawyer will fight every question they throw ur way if need be! Go outside the ball-less union and get private attorneys!



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Someone may have mentioned in another post, but what does the SBA have to do with this? We took an exam to get to the next rank, why would the SBA give a crap or even find that to be in the purview of their union duties.

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does anyone know the story with this ridiculous book......was it even written by cops??? ex-cops??? any law enforcement experience at all??? who the hell are these people that the job is putting so much importance in for an exam this big when after how many years all we've ever heard is that the patrol guide is gospil when it comes to promotional testing .......what an absolute joke this is we all need to protest n get this test thrown out



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save this post and count me in on it!

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nys finest wrote:

Exactly!

The union is supposed to work for the membership. That is what the dues are for. Heck who need a picnis or Christmas party? In the end being promoted will be more fruitful and put more money in your pocket to provide for your families. If enough of the membership continues to call and flood their mailbox, they will have to do something.

Where does it say SBA union dues are mandatory? If not, I say pull your money out, sign up for a SHAT or Kaplan prepatory class to be better prepared for the next exam.  


SBA MEETING NOV. 22! we should all show up! Voice our opinions, our union do what we need you to do.

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