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Gamblor · Senior Member

My attempt at an unbiased review

Haterinyou · Veteran Member

Give me a break as I too am educated and this test was not worth your explanation.

Your second paragraph was a run on sentence. Dont you worry,I got you:

While many of you here all seem to agree that this test was a complete abomination, in some respects I do agree. If you stop to think about the actual skills required to be a Lieutenant, this test is probably much closer to reality than any previous exam.

-- Edited by Haterinyou on Sunday 30th of October 2011 01:20:40 AM

-- Edited by Haterinyou on Sunday 30th of October 2011 01:23:24 AM

-- Edited by Haterinyou on Sunday 30th of October 2011 01:35:59 AM

prettypissed · Newbie

so then what you saying is on top of knowing the 2000 plus pages of the patrol guide, the admin guide, the legal bureau bulletins, the penal law AND THE ENGLISH, GRAMMAR, CALCULUS, LITERATURE AND JUDGEMENT SKILLS WITH A SIX MONTHS NOTICE...IS FAIR? YOU NEED YEARS FOR THIS ONE!

Mes018 · Senior Member

"don't worry ,I got you:"
Your comma is after the space. It should be before it. NO LIEUTENANT SHIELD FOR YOU!

brooklynbacon · Guru

So what should we do to study for the 2012 Lieutenant test (because you know theyll probably have one)?

Should we all go back to school and major in English with a minor in Math?

Or should we go to a liberal social seminar where they teach us what to do about stolen toilet paper, crying co-workers, and locker room eavesdropping?

Or maybe they should just stick to asking us patrol questions and procedures on crimes and emergency situations like they always did?

scott · Veteran Member

Alot of people didnt even complete the exam. hey if ur doing well and drop 8 at the end with no chance, smart qualified people will get screwed

Haterinyou · Veteran Member

Thank you.

fodx · Guru

Scott brings up a good point. Half way thru I started to worry I wouldn't be able to finish. I finished with ten minutes left and more than half the room was still there. Is it true alot if people actually didn't finish?

On a side note, the thing that pissed me off the most was the "standard English" questions. What a crock of ****. If there's one thi g I know it's how to speak and write in English, and for the life of me I had to guess on most of those. Who the **** write these questions?!

Haterinyou · Veteran Member

Meso18 wrote:Your comma is after the space. It should be before it. NO LIEUTENANT SHIELD FOR YOU!

Dont worry I got your back:

Your comma is after the space but should be before it. NO Lieutenant's shield for you.

10mtn · Veteran Member

6 months of my life studying the patrol guide for know apparent reason,what a wonderful feeling. i spent 20 minutes trying to figure out who the hell was on the in basket, what tour was i working and am i taking the write test. i should have enrolled in a grammar class instead of a promotional class. That the last test for me, i will never do that ---- again. I hope it works out for some of you guys but i wont be one of them. time to get back to the family. good luck with your results and let me know if anyone wants to protest this admonishment of a test.

Haterinyou · Veteran Member

Ha ha I spent 20 minutes searching under my desk for my missing intro page and instructions for the Inbasket. lol

prettypissed · Newbie

So true haterinyou....we got f*&$ed!!!

HabidasheryAuto · Senior Member

10mtn wrote:
6 months of my life studying the patrol guide for know apparent reason,what a wonderful feeling. i spent 20 minutes trying to figure out who the hell was on the in basket, what tour was i working and am i taking the write test. i should have enrolled in a grammar class instead of a promotional class. That the last test for me, i will never do that ---- again. I hope it works out for some of you guys but i wont be one of them. time to get back to the family. good luck with your results and let me know if anyone wants to protest this admonishment of a test.

I hope this was a joke, otherwise, maybe they were on to something.

10mtn · Veteran Member

your a quick one

Haterinyou · Veteran Member

I have to say that seeing the direction they are going with this rank , I don't know if I want it. Someone said you basically pay for about 9,000 of your 12,000 raise with givebacks and chart days lost.

I can barely get my guys to work now so imagine being incharge of a Platoon and at the same time go to Compstat and get belittled.

-- Edited by Haterinyou on Sunday 30th of October 2011 02:04:03 AM

10mtn · Veteran Member

Its not a big loss it just sucks how it came about.

Sgt4life · Veteran Member

Even if they give out an other test in 2012.. Am not studying... So disgusted !!

PatrolGuideismyBible · Guru

The OP can't be serious, that was an attempt at sarcasm, right? I will agree that basic math and grammar is lacking for many on this job, but those math questions didn't really spell out what they were looking for. Math- most productive squad? Now would that be actual summons written, summonses per cop, summons per patrol tour? Or the one with the summonses vs. accidents and trying to figure out the monthly numbers from the past two months by using percentages? None of the choices matched exact, I went with the one that was only off by decimals.

Grammar? Seriously? Have you read the Patrol Guide? It is a poorly written piece of trash. Words that use multiple spellings like "ensure" or "insure" or are spelled incorrectly altogether. Or using "if" at the end of every sentence?

Even the PG questions were no bargain, many could be challenged. The judgement questions were laughably stupid and contradicted procedures. Worst test I have ever scene, um... er I mean seen!!!

10mtn · Veteran Member

At least i dont have to wait 30 days for my results. lol

Gamblor · Senior Member

I was serious with my post. I made an effort to suppress my annoyance with the exam to at least try to understand where the Department is trying to go with it.

Do I think this exam was fair? Absolutely not. No one understood how to answer questions that blatantly contradicted the PG, and the math questions were poorly worded. Also, the grammar questions were needlessly convoluted and difficult.

My main point is that, while I think that this exam was a poor implementation of what the Department was trying to do, I believe the change will ultimately be for the best. It just needs to be refined to be a bit more realistic. It was unfortunate that we needed to be the guinea pigs for the change, but, welcome to the NYPD.

Sgt4life · Veteran Member

This guy can't be serious. I guess I'll bring my kids English home works to the new Lieutenants, but will ask someone else how to voucher a gun , how to classify a61, who to notify if his mother gets raped, or who to notify if I stopped a possible terrorist. O I am sorry he deserves that shield becoz he guessed what to say to a crying PAA .

Gamblor · Senior Member

Sgt4life wrote:
This guy can't be serious. I guess I'll bring my kids English home works to the new Lieutenants, but will ask someone else how to voucher a gun , how to classify a61, who to notify if his mother gets raped, or who to notify if I stopped a possible terrorist. O I am sorry he deserves that shield becoz he guessed what to say to a crying PAA .

You can look up how to voucher a gun, or who to notify in any particular situation. Hell, you can do it on your phone these days. What you can't look up is how to form a complete sentence when speaking to people or how to tell the PAA to suck it up without getting an EEO. For the first time, the Department is testing, or at least trying to, something that you can't just read in a book for a few months. Perhaps this is the end of tests where anyone with enough free time can become a boss. Now you may just have to have some general common sense and be able to form coherent thoughts. This test was retarded and didn't actually test what I listed above, but they did try.

Bklynvet · Member

I agree with...I think people skills are more important then books skills.. that you can always look up! You have to know how to talk to subordinates, superiors as well as the public. You also have to know how to use good judgement...

mike · Veteran Member

I agree somewhat with the first post. You should be tested on real world situations. The problem is without a guide or rules, how can you tell me my answer is less correct than yours?
peace.

infinity · Senior Member

Definitely not what any expected. I studied extremely hard and spent a lot of money on those classes and am a little pissed off about that. But, the PG questions they did ask are really going to separate this list. I found the in-basket to be difficult, I was thrown off by not knowing who I was and what tour I'm working but I worked through it. It was there attempt at making sure you could see how to position personnel while at work, and to prepare for people coming into work. Those last 33 Questions, I don't know what to think. An answer jumped out at me, but who knows if it was the right one.... Good Luck.

TiNmAn · Senior Member

That's fine and all but I just think they should of warned us. It's a psychological thing. U study for 7 months sacrificing time with ur family and then this test. Enough said.

Scantron · Veteran Member

I'm with Gamblor for the most part. I don't mind the direction they were trying to go with the exam; the way the exams are now is stupid, there is no need to memorize thousands of pages of often contradictory information that can be carried in your pocket anywhere you go (thanks to smartphones). However, they could have at least given some type of warning when the exam was announced.

I haven't heard anyone I know say they happy with the exam, but the consenus is that whether you studied for 6 months, weeks or days the difference probably wasn't much. I guess we will see when the key comes out. I'm tuning out until then.

See you all at the protest session.

Highwheel · Newbie

I don't post much at all. But, I feel like I have to throw something out there. We all put in crazy time and money to get an asinine test. Now if the knuckle head test makers used this test to go in a different direction, then throw that F@*^*$G 70 passing score out the F@#$*&G window!

the ringer · Senior Member

Gambalor!! Vice president next to brat!! I totally agree with you ! I decided last minute not to take the test. But totally saw this coming, clearly not without notice, but not really surprised, hope all passed but doesn't seem to be the case... But all the guys from the study class retire by next test..

nycop80 · Guru

This test was a bunch of crap. I wont go into details on specific questions but....No questions on dats , fireworks, not even one on continuous event. You have to be joking me ? This test was trash. Like stated above, it really didnt matter if you studied 6 months, 9 months or 1 week. For those of us who actually studied 9 months, we were majorly screwed. There were quite a few people in my room that did not finish the exam. My proctor was a moron as well. After the first bell, she was like that was just a test. Someone said, hey, they are giving out the booklets in the other rooms, and she was like , ok i guess i will. Then at the end of the exam i couldnt leave right away because she lost one of the Sgt's scantron sheets. What a crock of ****. I am praying for a 70 now. Unfortunately, I made some foolish mistakes on the in basket, so I probably failed. I wish good luck to the rest of you, because i certainly need it.

" If i was half the man i was 5 years ago, I'd take a flamethrower to this place. "

-- Edited by nycop80 on Sunday 30th of October 2011 01:16:59 PM

-- Edited by nycop80 on Sunday 30th of October 2011 01:17:34 PM

scott · Veteran Member

flamethrower---f'n awesome line bro

scott · Veteran Member

dc cab--shes had a flamethrower

WHALE POOPY · Veteran Member

That test was Whaley easy

NextLtTest · Senior Member

In my room one person left after two hours. The other twenty-nine of us were there over four hours.

BimpGod · Veteran Member

A very interesting test. When I first left I was flabbergasted...as to the feeling of being punched in the stomach and not being able to breathe. I studied hard for 6 months, attended all the classes and drove myself crazy trying to remember every little detail with the major procedures, including Cims.

I felt the in-basket was cake. Pretty much most of the answers were there and straightforward, with only 1 being a judgement answer about the PC arranging his priorities in order.

The PG section from 18-67 was tough. They skipped most of the huge procedures that they usually test based on past tests. I don't remember any questions from duties and responsibilities, cims, or department property. The sections they did test on we're obscure, and extremely tricky because they did not test you on the broad things like notifications, but more on specific duties. I wasn't planning on being asked specifics about 49's and copies etc. I found half to be relatively easy if you did study, but the other half to be difficult with a few questions having double answer.

The last 32 were simply personality/intelligence questions. I agree with most people you cannot accurately score people based on situational/judgement answers. It reminds me of the FBI aptitude test I took last year, except it wasn't a test meant for you to pass. It was used to measure how you work in groups, and as a supervisor. It tested specific personality traits so they could weed out the unintelligent people, or people who cannot manage. Those answers could go either way but overall I am disappointed because I put alot of time and effort, only to feel shortchanged. Depending on how people do, they might curve the test of give double answers. The list will be interesting. Maybe the dept didn't want 1200 people, or a huge list so they tried a different approach to score more quality better suited managers.

smartcookie · Senior Member

I agree with Gamblor. To be honest, even though it was a total curveball, this test was more indicative of what people have been saying for years regarding promotional exams- that the exam should test for things that a LT actually does! The fact is, writing, English and spelling are atrocious out there, and it is important for a boss to have a clue as to what decision he/she should be making in a given situation. Isn't that what most people have been complaining about for years- that the tests are just a regurgitation of the Patrol Guide? I think people are mad at the fact that they committed so many months to memorizing procedures and that is not all that was tested. I feel for those people, but I am glad that this test paved the way for change in asking managerial questions as well as more math and grammar. Good luck to all!

OkeeDokee · Veteran Member

My review:

You cannot set up judgement questions where you can go against written procedures.

There were a couple errors on the in-basket. They weren't critical, but they burned time if you tried to account for them.

Some of the the straight-up patrol guide questions had faulty premises, making no answer "mostly correct".

There was a specific question that I'm pretty sure I got, but is completely objectionable if you read the the page on which it is referenced in the p.g. There is actually no answer. It is the "what if" question that exam-writers shouldn't get into.

Test writing should be precise and uncontestable. These writers lacked those skills.

-- Edited by OkeeDokee on Sunday 30th of October 2011 02:59:55 PM

RayFinkel · Senior Member

but wouldnt you of liked to of been prepared..im all for rooted out these book memorizing losers who get promoted on this job but come on

smartcookie · Senior Member

RayFinkel- The fact is, you can't really prepare for grammar/reading comprehension or management skills type questions. Either you are strong in the areas of grammar/reading or not. And if you remember, DCAS sent out that letter after we registered for the exam and it mentioned one of the areas to be tested were managerial skills. So, we all got the heads up, but we all glazed over it, expecting the test to be the same it always has been- all PG questions. I'm sure there will be questions thrown out and Sgts will point to subjectivity, but to me, the test writers were trying to change the focus of the tests to come, and I think it is a good thing. As for the math questions- I think people don't realize that you did need to use the same formula that was used in the Compstat questions. Unfortunately, many Sgts only memorized the formula but didn't really understand how to apply it. You needed to read closely to what they were asking and apply the formula. I hope that everyone does a lot better than they think they did. I do not want to see a repeat of the 2006 LT's Exam, where it took a year for the list to come out!

wereinbacklog · Guru

It wont take that long considering d current LT exam expires in April.

smartcookie · Senior Member

wereinbacklog wrote:
It wont take that long considering d current LT exam expires in April.

Yeah, but you never know with this Dept. If they wanted to, I am sure they could extend the list. They do what they want, don't ya know?! furious

LateRiser · Senior Member

06 LT test will probably be extended. There will be lots of protestable Qs and i mean lots of them so DCAS will need (or whoever checks them, probably same ones that wrote the exam) a lot more time to verify and give the final answer key. So whoever is up to 800 on 06 LT list u got nothing to worry.

brat4914 · Guru

the review panel is different people from who wrote it !

LateRiser · Senior Member

brat4914 wrote:
the review panel is different people from who wrote it !

i hope they have half a brain. anyway is there a chance for this test to be thrown out? probably not hmm

-- Edited by LateRiser on Sunday 30th of October 2011 03:33:23 PM

wereinbacklog · Guru

I personally believe this will be a repeat of the 2010 Captain exam.

wereinbacklog · Guru

Doubt it'll be thrown out.

smartcookie · Senior Member

wereinbacklog wrote:
I personally believe this will be a repeat of the 2010 Captain exam.

I'm not so sure. There were a lot less people who sat for the Capt's exam vs. the Lt's exam. TPTB needed to throw out a shiitload of questions in order for there to be a list of 100! It won't be the case here. But, then another Lt's exam wouldn't be 5 years out. biggrin

-- Edited by smartcookie on Sunday 30th of October 2011 03:36:49 PM

HB · Senior Member

I honestly think i got all the judgement questions right. But thats because i picked what i thought dcas would want as a answer not necessarily what i wouldve picked. Its bs either way. If there isnt a procedure for it then they cant tell someone that they r wrong!

Haterinyou · Veteran Member

I think Smartcookie is correct; You either have the goods or you dont when it comes to being a good manager. The problem is that the Department does not operate on common sense or even encourage independent thinking.

I am seeing a discourse between what the NYPD claims it is trying to accomplish and the faulty foundation on which we operate, completely engulfed in applying the mechanical principals of Compstat inappropriately.

Here is some common sense : In my command we turn out 4 sectors and right out of the gate I lose 2 to 53's.

I am being told we used to have SP10 cars handling those type of jobs but some chief took them away from every PCT. Now instead of using the planning unit to see the dynamics involved he wipes out all te SP 10 cars and so now we have to answer as to why we are going into backlog.

My solution is that we use traffic agents to handle the 53's with no disputes or injuries and perhaps we show up momentarily to the accident but resume patrol and let traffic do the paperwork.

Perhaps we stop lying and fudging Compstat figures and show the truth,that crime has gone up but that it is just a reflection of the times and we cant help it if a husband decides to strangle his wife in the privacy of their own homes.

It is unfortunate but it seems the rank of Lieutenant will no longer be a good place to be anymore.

-- Edited by Haterinyou on Sunday 30th of October 2011 03:38:18 PM

-- Edited by Haterinyou on Sunday 30th of October 2011 03:42:02 PM

smartcookie · Senior Member

HB wrote:
I honestly think i got all the judgement questions right. But thats because i picked what i thought dcas would want as a answer not necessarily what i wouldve picked. Its bs either way. If there isnt a procedure for it then they cant tell someone that they r wrong!

I believe they can. Take the E-day question for the cop with the sick newborn. Your heart wanted to give him the day, but the Finest message says no excusals! So, you gotta have the balls (at least on the exam) to tell the cop, "Sorry dude, ya gotta find someone else to take your kid to the hospital." Reality may dictate you choose to give him off, but as a Lieutenant of Police, you need to make the hard, shiity decisions that people may not think are fair.

ETA: I mentioned the specific question b/c I am assuming that the Sabbath test takers are taking the exam now. If I am wrong, someone correct me and I will edit my response without mentioning the question.