Are we signing YES or NO on the sergeant's proposed contract?
Scammer045 said
Mar 20, 2015
I've just received a letter from the SBA requesting me to make my vote online with a deadline of April 6, 2015. Since most of us checking this part of the forum are already sergeants, I'd like us to discuss the cons and pros of the proposed contract before we make a decision.
All else remaining equal, I think the proposed contract would only be fair if salary increased at a rate equal or higher to that of the cost of living in NYC.
I mean that if with $98,072 (2011 top pay under the old contract) we were able to purchase X amount of goods (food, clothing, rent, fuel, transportation fares, medical care, entertainment, etc.), we need to be able to buy the same amount or more under the proposed contract's top pay in any given year ($102,054 in 2015, $109,360 in 2018, you get the point).
We know that top pay in 2015, under the proposed contract, is $102,054. That's aproximately a 4% increase from $98,072. We can then look at data to figure out by what percentage cost of living has increased from 2011 to 2015.
But that's only one small part of the equation. That's why I said "all else remaining equal". And we know things have not remained equal. The job demands more and more from us and this contract needs to compensate for that.
I should be studying right now lol, but I took some of my time to write this because I think we have a very important decision to make, one that will affect all of us, and if anyone has any valuable information that may influence my decision, I'd love to know about it.
-- Edited by Scammer045 on Saturday 21st of March 2015 12:16:14 AM
skiguy37 said
Mar 21, 2015
I already voted no. All I wanted was 2's... I don't care what other unions got. I guarantee the PBA gets a better outcome than what we were offered.
TransitSucks said
Mar 21, 2015
i don't think we gonna get any better.
Sarge said
Mar 21, 2015
I agree, I will also be voting no. If every other major police department is getting raises at 20% +, then why are we settling for a measly 11% that doesn't keep up with the cost of living?
Also I disagree with us selling out the PBA, we should wait a few months for them to be done with arbitration....
Scammer045 said
Mar 21, 2015
So we can agree that taking a raise that doesn't keep up with the cost of living equals accepting a pay cut.
I'm sure there are many out there who only look at the proposed top pay and are happy about it because they don't realize any top pay is meaningless unless cost of living is considered. We should discuss this with our collegues at work in case they haven't realized this contract is really a paycut.
The city has money and I will not accept a pay cut.
I also agree the SBA should wait until the PBA settles their contract.
signmy28 said
Mar 21, 2015
Voted No. And of the PBA gets anything bigger, they will have major givebacks
seamus said
Mar 21, 2015
Disagree with the SBA selling out the PBA? What about the PBA selling out the smaller unions the last couple rounds? Thats the The reason the DEA and the LBA do not have chart days anymore and are working longer and longer tours. The SBA would be next to lose the chart days if they waited. The PBA was asked to form a unified coalition with all UMOS, but they didnt want to because that is not in the best interest for THEIR members. The PBA can give back with the unborn, but the smaller unions "unborn" are guys with 5,10,15 years on the job.
Scammer045 said
Mar 21, 2015
Voted NO to the ridiculous pay cut.
que1999 said
Mar 21, 2015
seamus wrote:
Disagree with the SBA selling out the PBA? What about the PBA selling out the smaller unions the last couple rounds? Thats the The reason the DEA and the LBA do not have chart days anymore and are working longer and longer tours. The SBA would be next to lose the chart days if they waited. The PBA was asked to form a unified coalition with all UMOS, but they didnt want to because that is not in the best interest for THEIR members. The PBA can give back with the unborn, but the smaller unions "unborn" are guys with 5,10,15 years on the job.
This is 100% accurate. I love how the PBA can tout their huge raises under Pat Lynch's term but his term was chock full of givebacks. From $25,100 starting salary, to damn near no vacation days for the unborn, to an additional 6 months to top pay.... And of course under his tenure the new guys get to enjoy the wonderful Tier 3 retirement plan, which contains no ITHP/Additional 50%, and only accrues 5% interest on pension contributions as opposed to Tier 2's 8.25% interest with any ADDITIONAL contributions you may make. No death gamble, 22.5 year retirement and Social Security Offset. The PBA doesn't break the pattern that has been set, it just pays for the monetary value by giving all kinds of things back, which is exactly what they will do this round at PERB.
Sarge said
Mar 22, 2015
I think you guys are confused here, or maybe I am. The pba didn't negotiate the givebacks, the state just took them without anyones permission. Which is why I cant understand the point of a raise if they are gonna just take things back. If we get a 3% raise every year, then that's the cost of living, if they take anything back then its not a raise. If we want more than 3% then I can understand the concept of givebacks.
seamus said
Mar 22, 2015
So you are saying you believe the City can just come and TAKE things whenever they want? Why wouldnt they just TAKE the ITHP or the ITHP 50% from everyone in Tier 2, why wouldnt they just TAKE the chart days away from Sergeants, why wouldnt they just TAKE vacation days away and leave everyone with 10-15 days. They cant just TAKE things, every single benefit we have has a dollar amount placed on it and is negotiated dollar for dollar for any percentage of a raise that each union wants above the pattern.
-- Edited by seamus on Sunday 22nd of March 2015 02:14:12 AM
63ASAP said
Mar 22, 2015
ITHP, Additional 50%, Tier III has zero to do with the PBA or the City. That's Albany's doing. These are not "givebacks" in the manner you're thinking of. The moment Gov. Patterson refused to sign the Tier II extender, that was that. Lynch may be many things, but for this, he is not responsible.
que1999 said
Mar 22, 2015
63ASAP wrote:
ITHP, Additional 50%, Tier III has zero to do with the PBA or the City. That's Albany's doing. These are not "givebacks" in the manner you're thinking of. The moment Gov. Patterson refused to sign the Tier II extender, that was that. Lynch may be many things, but for this, he is not responsible.
You're correct, it was done at the state level... I should have specified that the other givebacks were directly given by the union. Like the loss of vacation days, the $25,100 starting salary (which corrected itself luckily for everyone), and 5 and a half years to top pay.
-- Edited by que1999 on Sunday 22nd of March 2015 07:56:50 AM
signmy28 said
Mar 22, 2015
Sarge, don't you think the PBA should be held accountable for this creation of these ****ty Tier 3 benefits? Although it was done by the state, where were all these " friends of the PBA" in Albany that are supportive of us that allowed that corrupt sneak Paterson to just not re-sign the legislation keeping Tier 2, as had been done since the late 1970s? Also the golden silence by these unions, of where politicians funnel that money ( welfare, food stamps, free tutu on for illegals, etc) is disgraceful.
The PBA dropped the ball by having tier 3 be created under their nose, actually all the police unions & and even the UFAwith Steve Cassidy , big labor guy, big lib, well u got housed by Paterson a democrat.
Et Tu brute ?
Airborne C284 said
Mar 22, 2015
signmy28, How powerful do you think the unions are that they will win against the Governor?
bigfoot45 said
Mar 23, 2015
Simply blame Governor Patterson for tier 3.
TrueNorth30 said
Mar 23, 2015
Folks...either way the fix is in...there is ABSOLUTELY no unity left on this job..no one willing to stick together..do you ever wonder what happened to the demonstrations that we USE to have..all the pot banging around bloomberg's house 24/7..until I see those efforts again, I really don't think this contract will be voted down.
signmy28 said
Mar 23, 2015
Pot banging at bloom bergs house?? I don't think he was even home when we did that. And this current commie piece of garbage is 100x worse then bloomberg... Never thought I'd say that
Sarge said
Mar 25, 2015
is it true our union dues are going to go up to 100 dollars if we vote yes?
fodx said
Mar 25, 2015
Glad to see so many people walk the walk and vote no as I did. Im worth much more than a penny for every dollar. I dont give a rat's ass what the other unions got. Thats THEIR problem. Have a pair and vote NO.
seamus said
Mar 25, 2015
foxd.. I dont think that means a single thing. I talked with about 30-40 detectives before their vote and about 90% of them said they were voting no. It still passed.
Every time there's a contract up for a vote I can't find 1 person that says they are going to vote Yes. And it passes overwhelmingly every time. Either everyone is a BS artist or vote is rigged.
96Times6 said
Mar 26, 2015
For the record; I voted NO.
Devil Dog said
Mar 26, 2015
i agree. the pattern had been set long before this contract. if the PBA gets anything better, it will include givebacks.
Sarge said
Mar 26, 2015
you can add me to the no list
Su Madre 24 said
Mar 26, 2015
I added no.
delayed63 said
Mar 26, 2015
I voted YES. were not getting anything better. Your The PBA will eventually take the same deal, it just depends if there going to take the 2 years from perb before they do. Also think of it in this light, every day that your out of contract is money that is not being put into your pension thats guaranteed 8.25%. So settling this contract is just going to put money into your pocket for the rest of your life. Also in 2018 a 4x12 sgt walking in the door with no over time will make $130.
And lets be honest once the teachers settled there contract everyone else go screwed. So you know who to blame.
Jooky said
Mar 27, 2015
delayed63 wrote:
I voted YES. were not getting anything better. Your The PBA will eventually take the same deal, it just depends if there going to take the 2 years from perb before they do. Also think of it in this light, every day that your out of contract is money that is not being put into your pension thats guaranteed 8.25%. So settling this contract is just going to put money into your pocket for the rest of your life. Also in 2018 a 4x12 sgt walking in the door with no over time will make $130.
And lets be honest once the teachers settled there contract everyone else go screwed. So you know who to blame.
Thank you Mr. Mullins.
DRPapi1983 said
Mar 27, 2015
Voted no
Boogie Knight said
Mar 30, 2015
I voted NO.
I understand there are those who want that retro for their mandatory annual 4 trips to the D.R, Miami, P.R. and/or Aruba, or putting down a tiny deposit for a BMW that they would not be able to afford the payments for anyway, but that is short term AND not as much as we can get by voting NO and going to PERB. Or at least holding off for the PBA decision. Once the SBA got numbers last month, as small as it was, the DEA and LBA want to go back to renegotiate better numbers than us. That should tell people something.
thats why I don't understand why anyone would vote Yes other than for nonsensicle material things.
-- Edited by Boogie Knight on Monday 30th of March 2015 02:39:13 PM
Sarge said
Apr 1, 2015
And this is why I voted no.....I have no idea why anyone would vote yes considering we haven't taken less than a 4 in ten years, yet some people want to sell out to the communist....
71.5% in favor to 28.5% opposed. They either fixed this vote as usual, or 71.5% of voters are morons.
skiguy37 said
Apr 6, 2015
I voted no and there were a majority of people that I spoke to that said that they would vote yes. So I actually trust the vote, especially since it was done by an outside agency.
Sarge said
Apr 7, 2015
yeah I trust the vote too, I voted no but I know a majority of people I spoke to voted yes....
delayed63 said
Apr 7, 2015
Jooky wrote:
71.5% in favor to 28.5% opposed. They either fixed this vote as usual, or 71.5% of voters are morons.
what do you honestly think we were going to get? 4's,5's 6's????? be realistic. At least we got something and no give backs. Im sure the PBA will eventually make it so its 25 years to retire and no chart days for cops with less then 5 years on.
Jooky said
Apr 7, 2015
Yes, I wanted 5 years at 6% each, that's what I said. I wanted something better than 1% a year with a built in 6 months of zeroes. I want to get cost of living raises or a salary on par with neighboring departments. Nobody fights for anything anymore, this department is full of defeatist puzzies. It's sad, really.
Scammer045 said
Apr 7, 2015
I second that, Jooky.
delayed63 said
Apr 8, 2015
Jooky wrote:
Yes, I wanted 5 years at 6% each, that's what I said. I wanted something better than 1% a year with a built in 6 months of zeroes. I want to get cost of living raises or a salary on par with neighboring departments. Nobody fights for anything anymore, this department is full of defeatist puzzies. It's sad, really.
Then challenge Mullins to his presidency.Then it would be up to you.Look at how our neighboring departments faired.Remember when Nassau went on a wage freeze for years..Imagine living off of a salary of $25,000 for 3 years.At least our department has a higher starting salary then Nassau and Suffolk.Im not saying im happy with our contract, but at least it wasnt 7 years of 0%.Yes its less then cost of living, but when were still in an economy where people are still getting laid off or cant find work were getting a raise.
Jooky said
Apr 8, 2015
Mullins didn't sign the contract, apparently 70% of the membership did. Union elections are fixed and Mullins will leave when he is ready to. My problem is that everybody who says they voted yes didn't like the contract, they just assumed they weren't going to do better and voted yes (it would have been preferable to abstain). It's like going to jail and volunteering to get raped, because you figure it's going to happen anyway. I hate to use the death of cops as leverage, but it's reality. We are not and should not be considered the same as other unions and as such should not be subject to their bargaining patterns.
Obviously I'm in the Lieutenants forum, so I won't be a sergeant for long (next class, hopefully). My new union is even more corrupt, where there are no elections and the presidency is handed down like a mandate from god. Guess I'll be complaining in the captains forum soon...
que1999 said
Apr 8, 2015
Jooky wrote:
Mullins didn't sign the contract, apparently 70% of the membership did. Union elections are fixed and Mullins will leave when he is ready to. My problem is that everybody who says they voted yes didn't like the contract, they just assumed they weren't going to do better and voted yes (it would have been preferable to abstain). It's like going to jail and volunteering to get raped, because you figure it's going to happen anyway. I hate to use the death of cops as leverage, but it's reality. We are not and should not be considered the same as other unions and as such should not be subject to their bargaining patterns.
Obviously I'm in the Lieutenants forum, so I won't be a sergeant for long (next class, hopefully). My new union is even more corrupt, where there are no elections and the presidency is handed down like a mandate from god. Guess I'll be complaining in the captains forum soon...
Wait till you join the CEA then your head will probably explode if your complaining about the SBA like this....
delayed63 said
Apr 9, 2015
I will say this. Ive been a member of 3 unions. The PBA, DEA, and SBA. SBA by far is the best union. Pat Lynch couldn't give a s@#t about his members, doesn't visit pct's (even the one he lives in from what I'm told), and all he cares about is getting into the papers. DEA seemed useless to me. SBA presented themselves well when I was in BMOC and they seem to be on top of there Sh*t. No matter how upset we are about the contract it would literally take a miracle for us to make what we should make. Cops should be at a salary of $100,000 with out overtime, night diff etc..... But as long as we work in a liberal city we will have to fight tooth and nail to get anything. I think its funny that we all work in NYC and guys like myself can't vote for a Mayor because I don't live in NYC. Theres your number one problem.
Sarge said
Apr 9, 2015
Our union is great and Mullins doesn't need to be voted out, we have the best union in the nypd. That being said, we shouldn't have settled for this bs contract...
I've just received a letter from the SBA requesting me to make my vote online with a deadline of April 6, 2015. Since most of us checking this part of the forum are already sergeants, I'd like us to discuss the cons and pros of the proposed contract before we make a decision.
All else remaining equal, I think the proposed contract would only be fair if salary increased at a rate equal or higher to that of the cost of living in NYC.
I mean that if with $98,072 (2011 top pay under the old contract) we were able to purchase X amount of goods (food, clothing, rent, fuel, transportation fares, medical care, entertainment, etc.), we need to be able to buy the same amount or more under the proposed contract's top pay in any given year ($102,054 in 2015, $109,360 in 2018, you get the point).
We know that top pay in 2015, under the proposed contract, is $102,054. That's aproximately a 4% increase from $98,072. We can then look at data to figure out by what percentage cost of living has increased from 2011 to 2015.
But that's only one small part of the equation. That's why I said "all else remaining equal". And we know things have not remained equal. The job demands more and more from us and this contract needs to compensate for that.
I should be studying right now lol, but I took some of my time to write this because I think we have a very important decision to make, one that will affect all of us, and if anyone has any valuable information that may influence my decision, I'd love to know about it.
-- Edited by Scammer045 on Saturday 21st of March 2015 12:16:14 AM
I agree, I will also be voting no. If every other major police department is getting raises at 20% +, then why are we settling for a measly 11% that doesn't keep up with the cost of living?
Also I disagree with us selling out the PBA, we should wait a few months for them to be done with arbitration....
I'm sure there are many out there who only look at the proposed top pay and are happy about it because they don't realize any top pay is meaningless unless cost of living is considered. We should discuss this with our collegues at work in case they haven't realized this contract is really a paycut.
The city has money and I will not accept a pay cut.
I also agree the SBA should wait until the PBA settles their contract.
Disagree with the SBA selling out the PBA? What about the PBA selling out the smaller unions the last couple rounds? Thats the The reason the DEA and the LBA do not have chart days anymore and are working longer and longer tours. The SBA would be next to lose the chart days if they waited. The PBA was asked to form a unified coalition with all UMOS, but they didnt want to because that is not in the best interest for THEIR members. The PBA can give back with the unborn, but the smaller unions "unborn" are guys with 5,10,15 years on the job.
This is 100% accurate. I love how the PBA can tout their huge raises under Pat Lynch's term but his term was chock full of givebacks. From $25,100 starting salary, to damn near no vacation days for the unborn, to an additional 6 months to top pay.... And of course under his tenure the new guys get to enjoy the wonderful Tier 3 retirement plan, which contains no ITHP/Additional 50%, and only accrues 5% interest on pension contributions as opposed to Tier 2's 8.25% interest with any ADDITIONAL contributions you may make. No death gamble, 22.5 year retirement and Social Security Offset. The PBA doesn't break the pattern that has been set, it just pays for the monetary value by giving all kinds of things back, which is exactly what they will do this round at PERB.
I think you guys are confused here, or maybe I am. The pba didn't negotiate the givebacks, the state just took them without anyones permission. Which is why I cant understand the point of a raise if they are gonna just take things back. If we get a 3% raise every year, then that's the cost of living, if they take anything back then its not a raise. If we want more than 3% then I can understand the concept of givebacks.
So you are saying you believe the City can just come and TAKE things whenever they want? Why wouldnt they just TAKE the ITHP or the ITHP 50% from everyone in Tier 2, why wouldnt they just TAKE the chart days away from Sergeants, why wouldnt they just TAKE vacation days away and leave everyone with 10-15 days. They cant just TAKE things, every single benefit we have has a dollar amount placed on it and is negotiated dollar for dollar for any percentage of a raise that each union wants above the pattern.
-- Edited by seamus on Sunday 22nd of March 2015 02:14:12 AM
You're correct, it was done at the state level... I should have specified that the other givebacks were directly given by the union. Like the loss of vacation days, the $25,100 starting salary (which corrected itself luckily for everyone), and 5 and a half years to top pay.
-- Edited by que1999 on Sunday 22nd of March 2015 07:56:50 AM
The PBA dropped the ball by having tier 3 be created under their nose, actually all the police unions & and even the UFAwith Steve Cassidy , big labor guy, big lib, well u got housed by Paterson a democrat.
Et Tu brute ?
Simply blame Governor Patterson for tier 3.
is it true our union dues are going to go up to 100 dollars if we vote yes?
Glad to see so many people walk the walk and vote no as I did. Im worth much more than a penny for every dollar. I dont give a rat's ass what the other unions got. Thats THEIR problem. Have a pair and vote NO.
One more "no" vote for this pay cut.
i agree. the pattern had been set long before this contract. if the PBA gets anything better, it will include givebacks.
you can add me to the no list
I voted YES. were not getting anything better. Your The PBA will eventually take the same deal, it just depends if there going to take the 2 years from perb before they do. Also think of it in this light, every day that your out of contract is money that is not being put into your pension thats guaranteed 8.25%. So settling this contract is just going to put money into your pocket for the rest of your life. Also in 2018 a 4x12 sgt walking in the door with no over time will make $130.
And lets be honest once the teachers settled there contract everyone else go screwed. So you know who to blame.
Thank you Mr. Mullins.
I voted NO.
I understand there are those who want that retro for their mandatory annual 4 trips to the D.R, Miami, P.R. and/or Aruba, or putting down a tiny deposit for a BMW that they would not be able to afford the payments for anyway, but that is short term AND not as much as we can get by voting NO and going to PERB. Or at least holding off for the PBA decision. Once the SBA got numbers last month, as small as it was, the DEA and LBA want to go back to renegotiate better numbers than us. That should tell people something.
thats why I don't understand why anyone would vote Yes other than for nonsensicle material things.
-- Edited by Boogie Knight on Monday 30th of March 2015 02:39:13 PM
And this is why I voted no.....I have no idea why anyone would vote yes considering we haven't taken less than a 4 in ten years, yet some people want to sell out to the communist....
yeah I trust the vote too, I voted no but I know a majority of people I spoke to voted yes....
what do you honestly think we were going to get? 4's,5's 6's????? be realistic. At least we got something and no give backs. Im sure the PBA will eventually make it so its 25 years to retire and no chart days for cops with less then 5 years on.
I second that, Jooky.
Then challenge Mullins to his presidency. Then it would be up to you. Look at how our neighboring departments faired. Remember when Nassau went on a wage freeze for years.. Imagine living off of a salary of $25,000 for 3 years. At least our department has a higher starting salary then Nassau and Suffolk. Im not saying im happy with our contract, but at least it wasnt 7 years of 0%. Yes its less then cost of living, but when were still in an economy where people are still getting laid off or cant find work were getting a raise.
Obviously I'm in the Lieutenants forum, so I won't be a sergeant for long (next class, hopefully). My new union is even more corrupt, where there are no elections and the presidency is handed down like a mandate from god. Guess I'll be complaining in the captains forum soon...
Wait till you join the CEA then your head will probably explode if your complaining about the SBA like this....
I will say this. Ive been a member of 3 unions. The PBA, DEA, and SBA. SBA by far is the best union. Pat Lynch couldn't give a s@#t about his members, doesn't visit pct's (even the one he lives in from what I'm told), and all he cares about is getting into the papers. DEA seemed useless to me. SBA presented themselves well when I was in BMOC and they seem to be on top of there Sh*t. No matter how upset we are about the contract it would literally take a miracle for us to make what we should make. Cops should be at a salary of $100,000 with out overtime, night diff etc..... But as long as we work in a liberal city we will have to fight tooth and nail to get anything. I think its funny that we all work in NYC and guys like myself can't vote for a Mayor because I don't live in NYC. Theres your number one problem.
Our union is great and Mullins doesn't need to be voted out, we have the best union in the nypd. That being said, we shouldn't have settled for this bs contract...