Greetings. I've been talking to a lot of other sgts from many different commands; all coming from very diverse socio-cultural backgrounds, some -with a lot of time in rank, others-less so... The common consensus is that the test was extremely poorly written. Many of the Patrol Guide -based questions had double answers or no correct answer at all. Judgement questions were allegedly based on an outdated book, "Supervision of Police Personnel" by N.F.Iannone. Even if that's true, that book was never mentioned in the "Notice of Exam" (or-anywhere else, for that matter) as a source material to be used in preparation for the test. Furthermore, the book itself hasn't been used for NYPD promotional tests for the past 20 years for a variety of reasons. As a result, a significant portion of the exam was focused not on testing the objective technical knowledge of the candidates based on the officially accepted NYPD materials, but on trying to determine candidates'decision-making and judgement skills. In the abscence of the official NYPD guidelines, any decision regarding what answers would be considered correct would be based on individual's opinion, and thereby would be extremely subjective.
I am certain that none of what I've just written comes as a suprise. The question now is -what are we going to do about this?
Of course, everybody should appeal all the poorly written, double-answer, subjective judgement questions. Working together on trying to remember these questions, researching information on how to protest the answers selected by DCAS etc will help us all.
I believe that we should go further than that. Many of the sgts I've been networking with for these past several days seem to agree that we should write a petition requesting that the subjective judgement questions be thrown out of the test. (I am not certain in such petition should be addressed to DCAS or to some other City agency providing oversight on such matters). I believe we should also request that some sort of "procedural guidelines" be created for the future promotional tests and that everyone involved in creating and administering those test be required to abide by such guidelines. Otherwise- the next promotional test might present us with yet another subjective, opinion-based abomination, leading to promotions based not on objective technical knowledge test scores, but on someone's opinion on how we should think/ make decisions/ conduct our professional interractions!
If anyone has any ideas about drafting such petition and anything else related to the process of challenging DCAS and the City beyond the official "exam appeal" route, lets try to work on it together. Any input will be greatly appreciated.
SteveC said
Nov 5, 2011
Protest the quetions. State this book by Iannone was never mentioned in the question and never mentioned in how to prepare for the test. According to 212-87 is in the question. Asking what you should do in a judgement situation is and not be guided is ridiculous. I am ready and willing to seek legal action against this test because of this. These are opinion questions basically that have multiple right answers. The FD test was the same horse**** and look what happened there.
-- Edited by SteveC on Saturday 5th of November 2011 04:27:47 PM
hollar said
Nov 5, 2011
Pretty ridicules to seek Legal assitance.... in fact it would be embarrassing....
SGT1701 said
Nov 5, 2011
I think s7g3t makes some very valid points, especially regarding that the NOE failed to cite where the 25 judgment questions would come from so we could be prepared...well done, s7g3t!
NextLtTest said
Nov 5, 2011
1. What happened to the FDNY test?
2. The union provides a member to the "TEST VALIDATION BOARD", like it or not we need their help. From DCAS website: "After the protest period is over, a Test Validation Board (TVB) consisting of representatives of the employing agency(ies), bargaining unit (i.e., union) and DCAS, Bureau of Examinations is convened to review all protests"
FNM said
Nov 5, 2011
everybody here brings up valid points however, I do not see how it would be deemed fair to count a exam where almost half of the questions(logic-leadership) are thrown out. A lot of people weren't able to finish and or were rushed to complete the test. A lot of these people who didnt finish saved the in-basket for last. Now if they throw out all the leadership questions those test takers who saved the in-basket for last can say that is unfair as where as someone who did the in-basket part first was able to complete all relevant parts of the exam where as they were not.
This entire test experience has been a nightmare for a lot of us. I personally feel that the only fair option is to go into the legal route to get the entire exam tossed. I like most of us have no experience with types of legal actions, however in the past week myself and a few other Sergeants from this website have been researching our options.
I know that there are some people on here that disagree that the exam should get tossed, and they feel that the protest session is the best choicw of action to take. I understand and respect the opinions of those who feel this way, however the majority census around the city is that most Sergeants believe that the exam should be tossed.
For those who disagree that a lot of Sergeants at there command feel this way than please feel free to post on here about it as most people I have spoken to about how people feel at there commands believe this.
outat20 said
Nov 5, 2011
im sorry, but the last thing i want is the exam to be tossed, i'm not taking another test, I did my part by studying, they failed by not giving us a fair test, there no second chances for them, my brain is f-ing fried.
wereinbacklog said
Nov 5, 2011
outat20 wrote:
im sorry, but the last thing i want is the exam to be tossed, i'm not taking another test, I did my part by studying, they failed by not giving us a fair test, there no second chances for them, my brain is f-ing fried.
I concur cant do this again.
oneadditional said
Nov 5, 2011
I can't study for another test right now. I don't want to see another patrol guide for a few years ( well until after I come armed with it for the protest ). They never cited their source for these judgement question. I could say I read that book but they never said what's the best answer according to the supervison book by iannones or whatever his name is so I figured they wanted my personal opinion. Had they cited it maybe I would have went with inanoones OPINION because it certainly isn't fact. They had no problems citing the patrol guide and we knew exactly where they were coming from and that's the protest.
NeedOutOfNarcotics said
Nov 5, 2011
Absolutely, having the exam tossed will mean we all gave the city either $96 or $101 for nothing but aggravation!
Rudy said
Nov 5, 2011
study harder next time, stop complaining
SteveC said
Nov 5, 2011
Best of luck, we will see what happens in the end.
-- Edited by SteveC on Saturday 5th of November 2011 10:41:34 PM
-- Edited by SteveC on Saturday 5th of November 2011 10:41:51 PM
SteveC said
Nov 5, 2011
oneadditional wrote:
I can't study for another test right now. I don't want to see another patrol guide for a few years ( well until after I come armed with it for the protest ). They never cited their source for these judgement question. I could say I read that book but they never said what's the best answer according to the supervison book by iannones or whatever his name is so I figured they wanted my personal opinion. Had they cited it maybe I would have went with inanoones OPINION because it certainly isn't fact. They had no problems citing the patrol guide and we knew exactly where they were coming from and that's the protest.
And what is your stance if you do not get promoted because you got some of these questions wrong? How would you feel then?
RISING IDIOT said
Nov 5, 2011
hollar wrote:
Pretty ridicules to seek Legal assitance.... in fact it would be embarrassing....
Really? I bet all the long islanders were happy that guy sought legal assistance to get the residency points thrown out
SteveC said
Nov 5, 2011
A pending lawsuit is why the 03 LT list had everyone get promoted.
NeedOutOfNarcotics said
Nov 5, 2011
Rudy, having the test thrown out means that those who DID study hard get screwed!
notsomuch said
Nov 5, 2011
I think it's a conspiracy to prevent this list from being established. that way the commish can extend the current list so a certain person can get promoted.
90y Request 63 said
Nov 6, 2011
THOSE 33 QUESTIONS WERE NOT THE HARDEST QUESTIONS IN THE WORLD...YES IT WAS UNFAIR WE WERE NOT FOREWARNED ABOUT THOSE TYPES OF QUESTIONS BUT TO TOSS AN ENTIRE EXAM IS BOGUS AND IT WILL DEF NOT HAPPEN....EVERYONE PROTEST THE B.S DOUBLE ANSWERS AND THE RIDICULOUS PATROL GUIDE QUESTIONS THEY GAVE US AND CALL IT A DAY...I HAVE A 76 WITH JIM MCNULTYS "MASTER KEY " AND I ABSOLUTELY KILLED MYSELF TOOK 2 WEEKS BEFORE THE TEST AND REVEWED 12 HRS A DAY RIGHT UP TO THE MORNING OF THE TEST LIKE AN EDP SO TRUST ME I FEEL EVERYONES PAIN BUT THROWING THIS TEST OUT WILL DO NOTHING BUT SCREW THE PEOPLE WHO STUDIED EXTREMEMLY HARD LIKE MYSELF...PEOPLE WHO HAVE A HALF A BRAIN AND DID THEIR TIME ARE IN THE 70S 80S...THAT WILL BE ENOUGH TO GET MADE WITH THIS LIST....ALL THE PEOPLE WHO DIDNT PUT THE TIME IN HAVE 50S AND 60S...EVEN A 5 POINT CURVE WOULD SUFFICE BUT YOU SIMPLY CAN NOT TOSS A WHOLE EXAM PEOPLE STOPPED THEIR LIVES FOR 8 MONTHS FOR THIS!!!! YOU DONT JUST THROW THAT AWAY...PLUS I WILL NEVER WASTE 8 MONTHS OF MY LIFE AGAIN FOR THIS DEPARTMENT....THEY WONT TAKE ANOTHER MINUTE OF IT WITH THEIR RIDICULOUS EXAMS AND BULLSH*T WAY OF DOIN THINGS...THIS WHOLE DEPT IS ASS FU*KING BACKWARDS ANYWAY ITS AN ABSOLUTE JOKE...COPS ARE GETTING PUNCHED IN THE TEETH AT OCCUPY WALL STREET BUT HEY....WE NEED TO ADDRESS THESE "TRAFFIC CONDITIONS" LOLOL CANT WAIT TO LEAVE THIS PATHETIC JOB..AND TELL EVERYONE WHAT A JOKE IT TRULY IS...
nys finest said
Nov 6, 2011
I totally agree with you. There are rules to administering civil service exams. If DCAS and the department are allowed to get away with this poorly written, subjective exam, what next?
Protest and get those subjective questions tossed! Just because DCAS changed the notice of exam doesn't mean what they did was right or legal. They have been found guilty by a fedearal judge in the past for writing subjective exams.
A lot of members were totally confused and upset by the direction DCAS and the department took with regards to this exam. Alot of you are angry now and want to fight back, and I think you all have the right to angry and upset, especially those who put their lives on hold and studies hard.
But I wonder how many of you will still be willing to fight once the official answer key comes out and realize that you actually may make the list? Judging from the prior lieutenants exam making the list does not guarantee that you will be promoted. How many of you will look past it all and realize that there were serious issues with this exam and still fight?
The Vulcan Society of the FDNY won a court case in federal court because many questions on their entry level and promotional exam mirrored that of a SHAT exam and did not reflect their actal rules and regulations or job description/duties of a fireman. Even though part of the basis for the lawsuit was based on discrimination, if you read through the actual court document, you will see that it was about more than that.
The agency that took on this case was The Center For Constitutional Justice located at 666 Broadway, 7fl. 212-614-6464 and the lawyer was Darius Charney.
I will share this link with you all and you be the judge. http://www.justice.gov/crt/spec_topics/fdny/documents/doc_385.pdf
I did not read the entire document but it started getting interesting by page 10 and the final decision.
I hope in spite of this fiasco, a lot of you will not only make the list but also get promoted.
Good luck and happy reading
__________________
nys finest said
Nov 6, 2011
Here's the link, you can read it for yourself. It is very long but informative.
i agree, we should just try to get the crazy questions tossed. i can not studying again. lets try to post all the questions that need to be protested, so we can remember them and perpare for the protest.
LateRiser said
Nov 6, 2011
A lot of people that studied hard are in the mid 60s. and they got mid 80s on sgt test. so im all to toss this test.
E D said
Nov 6, 2011
You wanna toss stuff? Toss my salad, I'll even give you a choice, Syrup or Jelly?
LateRiser said
Nov 6, 2011
obviously didnt do well at non PG Qs. I bet you will be the one sitting front row trying to "TOSS" as many Qs as you can then cry abt it when final answer comes out.
Dying06Lt said
Nov 6, 2011
notsomuch wrote:
I think it's a conspiracy to prevent this list from being established. that way the commish can extend the current list so a certain person can get promoted.
Yep, but at least there list number is higher than mine !
-- Edited by Dying06Lt on Sunday 6th of November 2011 11:14:05 PM
s7g3t said
Nov 7, 2011
Thank you everybody for your responses.
Regarding seeking legal action: I am very aware that many of us (myself included) do not have an extensive experience with taking this kind of action against the City and DCAS. However, I know that some of us have been researching this matter, reading some of the similiar cases, getting names of potential legal representatives etc. Sharing such knowledge and openly discussing our options will benefit us all.
I believe that taking legal action might be one of the very few options we have in trying to insure that DCAS and the City do not continue to administer this kind of subjective poorly-written promotional tests. 2010 Capt.'s Exam and 2011 Lt's Exam appear to be establishing a very concerning pattern.
There are many prior precedents when similiar promotional testing practices were successfully challenged. And if that's been done before, it can be achieved again, as long as we work together and agree on what our common goals are.
A very valid concern was expressed regarding how many people will be willing to protest this exam after the DCAS answer key comes out in about three weeks, since many of us might find out that we passed this test. I can only speak for myself, of course, but I know that regardless of whether or not my final score is 90 or 60, I want to challenge the very nature of how this test was written. This kind of promotional test will lead to promotions based on some individual's opinion regarding our decision-making or professional interraction style, and not on the basis of test scores derived from objective knowledge. It seems to me that this kind of subjective promotional practice would be challenging the concept of non-discretionary promotion, which NYPD established for promotion to the ranks of Sgt, Lt and Capt.
Meanwhile, the date of the Exam Appeal Session is in about three and half weeks, if I am not mistaken. Lets keep posting all the questions that can be challenged because they were not written well, had double-answers or no answer at all etc. I know that most of us may not want to look at Patrol Guide for another eternity. But we need to stay focused and positive, go back to our books, look up the information and share it with each other. Coming to the Appeal Session well prepared, sucessfully challenging many of the questions and getting them thrown out will be our first step in successfully protesting this test.
Mes018 said
Nov 7, 2011
Dying06Lt wrote:
notsomuch wrote:
I think it's a conspiracy to prevent this list from being established. that way the commish can extend the current list so a certain person can get promoted.
Yep, but at least there list number is higher than mine !
-- Edited by Dying06Lt on Sunday 6th of November 2011 11:14:05 PM
Good thing you passed the '06 test because "there" in your sentence should be "their".
-- Edited by Mes018 on Monday 7th of November 2011 03:59:49 AM
Haterinyou said
Nov 7, 2011
If I may, let me put in my two cents. The way it is looking is that those who have gotten a sixty something or better are apprehensive about getting the exam tossed. Those who did poorly or did the inbasket last and weren't able to finish feel that if those subjective questions are thrown out then they are at a potentially bigger disadvantage ;They feel they rather take a chance with getting questions wrong on the subjective questions part then having them thrown out and then being left with only the wrong questions or unanswered questions of the inbasket .
This dilema is compounded by the unthinkable task of having to study again for a new exam. For the most part if 5000 people took the exam and 1500 would have passed then I feel DCAS will ultimately throw out enough so that as many as close to that number will pass. The way to look at it is that everyone was at the same disadvantage and so fair or unfair those that studied hardest will still make it. I dont know yet if I totally agree with this but think this is the way it is looking to go.
Dying06Lt said
Nov 7, 2011
Mes018 wrote:
Dying06Lt wrote:
notsomuch wrote:
I think it's a conspiracy to prevent this list from being established. that way the commish can extend the current list so a certain person can get promoted.
Yep, but at least there list number is higher than mine !
-- Edited by Dying06Lt on Sunday 6th of November 2011 11:14:05 PM
Good thing you passed the '06 test because "there" in your sentence should be "their".
-- Edited by Mes018 on Monday 7th of November 2011 03:59:49 AM
Don't be a jacka** !
scott said
Nov 7, 2011
These judgement questions were give me's. if u cant assume u got all 33 correct then u need some serious help. a 1oth grader with limited education could get all right. if u get one wrong you should be demoted!!!!!!!!!!!
scott said
Nov 7, 2011
Try crying somewhere else,
were all full here
sharpie973 said
Nov 7, 2011
...
-- Edited by sharpie973 on Tuesday 9th of September 2014 02:55:05 PM
Greetings. I've been talking to a lot of other sgts from many different commands; all coming from very diverse socio-cultural backgrounds, some -with a lot of time in rank, others-less so... The common consensus is that the test was extremely poorly written. Many of the Patrol Guide -based questions had double answers or no correct answer at all. Judgement questions were allegedly based on an outdated book, "Supervision of Police Personnel" by N.F.Iannone. Even if that's true, that book was never mentioned in the "Notice of Exam" (or-anywhere else, for that matter) as a source material to be used in preparation for the test. Furthermore, the book itself hasn't been used for NYPD promotional tests for the past 20 years for a variety of reasons. As a result, a significant portion of the exam was focused not on testing the objective technical knowledge of the candidates based on the officially accepted NYPD materials, but on trying to determine candidates'decision-making and judgement skills. In the abscence of the official NYPD guidelines, any decision regarding what answers would be considered correct would be based on individual's opinion, and thereby would be extremely subjective.
I am certain that none of what I've just written comes as a suprise. The question now is -what are we going to do about this?
Of course, everybody should appeal all the poorly written, double-answer, subjective judgement questions. Working together on trying to remember these questions, researching information on how to protest the answers selected by DCAS etc will help us all.
I believe that we should go further than that. Many of the sgts I've been networking with for these past several days seem to agree that we should write a petition requesting that the subjective judgement questions be thrown out of the test. (I am not certain in such petition should be addressed to DCAS or to some other City agency providing oversight on such matters). I believe we should also request that some sort of "procedural guidelines" be created for the future promotional tests and that everyone involved in creating and administering those test be required to abide by such guidelines. Otherwise- the next promotional test might present us with yet another subjective, opinion-based abomination, leading to promotions based not on objective technical knowledge test scores, but on someone's opinion on how we should think/ make decisions/ conduct our professional interractions!
If anyone has any ideas about drafting such petition and anything else related to the process of challenging DCAS and the City beyond the official "exam appeal" route, lets try to work on it together. Any input will be greatly appreciated.
Protest the quetions. State this book by Iannone was never mentioned in the question and never mentioned in how to prepare for the test. According to 212-87 is in the question. Asking what you should do in a judgement situation is and not be guided is ridiculous. I am ready and willing to seek legal action against this test because of this. These are opinion questions basically that have multiple right answers. The FD test was the same horse**** and look what happened there.
-- Edited by SteveC on Saturday 5th of November 2011 04:27:47 PM
2. The union provides a member to the "TEST VALIDATION BOARD", like it or not we need their help.
From DCAS website: "After the protest period is over, a Test Validation Board (TVB) consisting of representatives of the employing agency(ies), bargaining unit (i.e., union) and DCAS, Bureau of Examinations is convened to review all protests"
This entire test experience has been a nightmare for a lot of us. I personally feel that the only fair option is to go into the legal route to get the entire exam tossed. I like most of us have no experience with types of legal actions, however in the past week myself and a few other Sergeants from this website have been researching our options.
I know that there are some people on here that disagree that the exam should get tossed, and they feel that the protest session is the best choicw of action to take. I understand and respect the opinions of those who feel this way, however the majority census around the city is that most Sergeants believe that the exam should be tossed.
For those who disagree that a lot of Sergeants at there command feel this way than please feel free to post on here about it as most people I have spoken to about how people feel at there commands believe this.
I concur cant do this again.
-- Edited by SteveC on Saturday 5th of November 2011 10:41:34 PM
-- Edited by SteveC on Saturday 5th of November 2011 10:41:51 PM
And what is your stance if you do not get promoted because you got some of these questions wrong? How would you feel then?
Really? I bet all the long islanders were happy that guy sought legal assistance to get the residency points thrown out
I think it's a conspiracy to prevent this list from being established. that way the commish can extend the current list so a certain person can get promoted.
I totally agree with you. There are rules to administering civil service exams. If DCAS and the department are allowed to get away with this poorly written, subjective exam, what next?
Protest and get those subjective questions tossed! Just because DCAS changed the notice of exam doesn't mean what they did was right or legal. They have been found guilty by a fedearal judge in the past for writing subjective exams.
A lot of members were totally confused and upset by the direction DCAS and the department took with regards to this exam. Alot of you are angry now and want to fight back, and I think you all have the right to angry and upset, especially those who put their lives on hold and studies hard.
But I wonder how many of you will still be willing to fight once the official answer key comes out and realize that you actually may make the list? Judging from the prior lieutenants exam making the list does not guarantee that you will be promoted. How many of you will look past it all and realize that there were serious issues with this exam and still fight?
The Vulcan Society of the FDNY won a court case in federal court because many questions on their entry level and promotional exam mirrored that of a SHAT exam and did not reflect their actal rules and regulations or job description/duties of a fireman. Even though part of the basis for the lawsuit was based on discrimination, if you read through the actual court document, you will see that it was about more than that.
The agency that took on this case was The Center For Constitutional Justice located at 666 Broadway, 7fl. 212-614-6464 and the lawyer was Darius Charney.
I will share this link with you all and you be the judge. http://www.justice.gov/crt/spec_topics/fdny/documents/doc_385.pdf
I did not read the entire document but it started getting interesting by page 10 and the final decision.
I hope in spite of this fiasco, a lot of you will not only make the list but also get promoted.
Good luck and happy reading
__________________
Here's the link, you can read it for yourself. It is very long but informative.
http://www.justice.gov/crt/spec_topics/fdny/documents/doc_385.pdf
i agree, we should just try to get the crazy questions tossed. i can not studying again. lets try to post all the questions that need to be protested, so we can remember them and perpare for the protest.
Yep, but at least there list number is higher than mine !
-- Edited by Dying06Lt on Sunday 6th of November 2011 11:14:05 PM
Thank you everybody for your responses.
Regarding seeking legal action: I am very aware that many of us (myself included) do not have an extensive experience with taking this kind of action against the City and DCAS. However, I know that some of us have been researching this matter, reading some of the similiar cases, getting names of potential legal representatives etc. Sharing such knowledge and openly discussing our options will benefit us all.
I believe that taking legal action might be one of the very few options we have in trying to insure that DCAS and the City do not continue to administer this kind of subjective poorly-written promotional tests. 2010 Capt.'s Exam and 2011 Lt's Exam appear to be establishing a very concerning pattern.
There are many prior precedents when similiar promotional testing practices were successfully challenged. And if that's been done before, it can be achieved again, as long as we work together and agree on what our common goals are.
A very valid concern was expressed regarding how many people will be willing to protest this exam after the DCAS answer key comes out in about three weeks, since many of us might find out that we passed this test. I can only speak for myself, of course, but I know that regardless of whether or not my final score is 90 or 60, I want to challenge the very nature of how this test was written. This kind of promotional test will lead to promotions based on some individual's opinion regarding our decision-making or professional interraction style, and not on the basis of test scores derived from objective knowledge. It seems to me that this kind of subjective promotional practice would be challenging the concept of non-discretionary promotion, which NYPD established for promotion to the ranks of Sgt, Lt and Capt.
Meanwhile, the date of the Exam Appeal Session is in about three and half weeks, if I am not mistaken. Lets keep posting all the questions that can be challenged because they were not written well, had double-answers or no answer at all etc. I know that most of us may not want to look at Patrol Guide for another eternity. But we need to stay focused and positive, go back to our books, look up the information and share it with each other. Coming to the Appeal Session well prepared, sucessfully challenging many of the questions and getting them thrown out will be our first step in successfully protesting this test.
-- Edited by Mes018 on Monday 7th of November 2011 03:59:49 AM
This dilema is compounded by the unthinkable task of having to study again for a new exam. For the most part if 5000 people took the exam and 1500 would have passed then I feel DCAS will ultimately throw out enough so that as many as close to that number will pass. The way to look at it is that everyone was at the same disadvantage and so fair or unfair those that studied hardest will still make it. I dont know yet if I totally agree with this but think this is the way it is looking to go.
Don't be a jacka** !
were all full here
...
-- Edited by sharpie973 on Tuesday 9th of September 2014 02:55:05 PM