My Tier 3 colleagues, Will you leave at 20?
vote(s)
Post Reply| 20 and out |
|
77.5% | |
| Staying past 20 |
|
22.5% |
The 5% is based off the base salary of the highest rate in each rank (Det 1st grade, Ssa/Ssd, LSA/LCD). This means you take your final # whatever it is for the year and add 5% of the base rate of the specific rank - for LSA thats a little over 170,000 right now. So lets say you made 220,000 you final year you add $8511 (170,232 x .05 (5%)). This means your final pension numbers would be based off 228,511. So the 5% retention gives you ~$355 extra in your pension per month. Obviously with each raise it will increase but its not something specifically worth staying for. If you planned on doing 25 anyway its a nice bonus but I will not be staying 5 years for $355
-- Edited by CaptSkirt on Thursday 15th of May 2025 09:58:47 AM
Stopped reading
An extra $355 for having the job breaking your balls for turning on your body cam after you stepped one foot outside the RMP hardly seems worth it for five years. Hope were calculating it wrong, but if thats the case I can see how many wont view it as an incentive.
Yes I fixed it. i typed incorrectly but the math is correct
Whats the regular math for the 228,000 staying 20 years calculation?
I just used 220,000 bc thats a good approximation of what a top pay Lt with night diff and steady Ot will make. You could use any number you want as final salary but the 5% number wont change until next step of contract. So after March of next year the 5% will be based off 177,042 so it brings the # up to 8,852 added to your final salary. So in 2026 that 5% would add ~368 per month (8852/2/12 - 50% of what was added / 12 months). Obviously with each raise thereafter it will increase the amount but personally I do not think that alone should be deciding factor. Its a great bump for those that were gonna stay already and it didnt cost anything so its a win / win
Thank you for the brake down
"Notwithstanding any provision of law to the contrary, when a detective, sergeant, or lieutenant shall have accrued twenty-five years of uniformed service with the New York city police department, and retires after having served three years in any such rank, they shall have five per centum of the highest grade of pay under the applicable collective bargaining agreement of such rank in which they retire, for a period of time aggregating two years, added to the applicable salary, used for the purposes of computing pension benefits under the plan in which they are enrolled with the New York city police pension fund."
What is this 2 years thing?
So is the 5% added to our FAS or is it added to the last two years and then our FAS is calculated? Seems like the second one to me, which sucks because this screws Tier 3 a little bit more, as is tradition.
I spoke to a PBA delegate yesterday and was told thats the next fight, but doesnt seem like its gonna happen with this budget. I also spoke to vallelong personally at a meeting. The PBA is the ones who need to be pushing this. Obviously anyone coming on the job is right into tier 3 so they have the most members who suffer from this. When I brought this up to the SBA I asked are they throwing their support behind this as well seeing as tier 3 is coming up on 16 years. They said the PBA doesnt want anyone co signing this, they want their names all over it. So it sounded like the PBA wanted all the glory. Who knows whats true. All these presidents are going to lie to make themselves look better. Either way they need to get it fixed asap.
-- Edited by Tier3scum on Thursday 15th of May 2025 05:58:36 PM
Hey...so...when you spoke to Vallelong personally...he didn't happen to tell you when the raise would kick in or when we can expect the retro check did he? Figured its a question he might have been able to answer. (Asking for a friend)
-- Edited by standbyfor63 on Thursday 15th of May 2025 06:07:39 PM
I thought you had to do 25 years in any rank and Youd get the 5% for the rank you retire in. This sounds like you would have to do 3 years in that rank.
-- Edited by El Norte on Thursday 15th of May 2025 10:45:20 PM
Yes you have to do 3 years in that rank. But, its also the highest grade, which means it might be 5% of SSA pay added to regular Sgt FAS, and 5% of LSA added to a Lts FAS. But again, very confusing.
With Escalation its based off the CPI. From what the pension section has sent me, its not a direct 1:1 but its not too far off. They sent me this chart
2022 7.04%
2021 1.36%
2020 2.29%
2019 1.91%
2018 2.11%
2017 2.07%
2016 0.73%
2015 0.76%
2014 1.50%
2013 1.74%
2012 2.96%
2011 1.50%
2010 2.72%
It is calculated by the office of the actuary. If Escalation exceeds 3% it is banked and applied to future years where escalation was less then 3%. If it is negative then yes your pension can decrease, but never below what you started with at retirement. Escalation does compound and is for your entire pension.
As for the SS offset, I am willing to bet it will be removed well before anyone is eligible for social security. The closest tier 3 guy is probably still probably about 10 years away from social security age so plenty of time the fix, the 20 year retirement was definitely a more pressing issue.
I'm sure word will be out for when full escalation will be calculated, whether it will be now 23 years or remain at 25. The tier 3 summary does state it starts on your 22nd anniversary and full escalation is on your 25th anniversary. I'm sure the pension section will clarify soon enough.
Make sure you guys are contributing and hopefully maxing out your 457, with no ithp and 50/50 our 457 is the next best thing we got to supplement our pensions upon retirement.
Cola is 1-3 percent every year. doubt it will ever go the full 3% so just saying 2% for arguments sake, would be less than $4000 a year On an 185k salary. Thats $333/month before taxes so most likely an extra $200 and change. Wouldnt call that a big reason to stay. If you add cola and 5% longevity bonus they recently added, you would add an extra $500 a month for staying 5 extra years.
I think the pension section needs to start figuring out some rough numbers including the social security offset instead of dangling something shiny in front of our faces hoping we dont do the math, i dont think staying for the escalation pays if you add how much pension $ you will collect in 5 years of not working. In my scenario you would have collected $462000 from years 20-25
https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/bills/2025/S7975/amendment/A
-- Edited by speedyx on Wednesday 28th of May 2025 06:28:29 PM
Recently any bill that has passed has only been for members that are still active. I would assume the same thing for future bills. Hopefully the ss offset bill can pass within the next year. Tier 3 has had a couple big wins the past 2 years, hopefully that continues.
so why would 20 years be worthless? Is the escalation that big of a difference? Im not a numbers guy, but everyone sees to be posting its only a few extrA a month. Does it change the long term numbers?
Just think of a Tier 2 guy who retired 20 years ago. Their pension is nothing now due all the inflation.
What is the difference between cola and escalation?
Id argue them lowering retirement age to 20 will hurt their retention a lot more than any of so called retention bills passed so far.
As of right now, theres literally zero incentive to stay from 20 to 22. Youre literally not gaining anything by staying those two extra years. Escalation will start at the beginning of your 23rd year and you gain a fraction for every month you stay on till you hit full 25.
So once again, it really comes down to either 20 or 25. Big decision for many.
Unless ithp,50/50, or getting 60th back I dont see what can be done to keep people on the job. Quality of life taking your pension and doing anything else in any other state has major upside. Not recommending leaving just to leavebut staying 5 years for few hundred dollars a month is no way worth it.
Tier 2 COLA
"A retiree becomes eligible for Cost of Living Adjustments (COLA) at age 62 if retired for at
least five years, or at age 55 if retired for at least ten years, and all disability retirees are
eligible for COLA after being retired for five years. The COLA amount is calculated at ½ the
Federal Consumer Price Index (CPI), with the minimum amount being 1% and the maximum
being 3%.
Spouses collecting a benefit under a joint and survivor option may also be eligible to receive
COLA; however, the beneficiary receives 50% of the amount that the member/retiree would
have received.
The COLA amount is applied to the first $18,000 of the retirement allowance, or to the full
retirement allowance if less than $18,000. COLA payments to Service retirees are subtracted
from their VSF payments until attainment of age 62, after which point the retiree will receive
both the full COLA and full VSF payments."
A few things - COLA doesn't really start for tier 2 MOS until age 62. "A retiree becomes eligible for Cost of Living Adjustments (COLA) at age 62 if retired for at least five years, or at age 55 if retired for at least ten years, and all disability retirees are eligible for COLA after being retired for five years." Next, COLA is 1/2 of the federal CPI, with the minimum being 1% and maximum being 3%. Let's give an example to make it a little easier to understand. If the Federal CPI is 2.5%, a tier 2 MOS COLA will be 1.25% of $18,000. That means the COLA raise for the year will be $225 ($18.75 per month). If the MOS is receiving VSF each December, that $225 will be deducted from their VSF checks until the year they turn 62. If they are NOT receiving VSF, they will receive the full COLA. So using a tier 2 retired MOS who's collecting a $100,000 pension, AND they meet the age/length of retirement/62 years old requirements, their COLA raise will be $18.75 per month at a 2.5% federal CPI.
Tier 3 COLA
"Tier 3 Enhanced members who retire for ODR or ADR become eligible for Cost of Living
Adjustments (COLA) after being retired for five years. COLA is calculated annually by the
New York City Office of the Actuary.
The COLA amount is applied to the first $18,000 of the retirement allowance, or to the full
retirement allowance if less than $18,000.
Spouses collecting a benefit under a joint and survivor option may also be eligible to receive
COLA; however, the beneficiary receives 50% of the amount that the member/retiree would
have received."
Seems like only ODR and ADR retirees receive COLA, so a moot point for most. Not really even breaking tier 3 COLA down any further. It is unfortunate, though, how tier 3 ODR and ADR retirees will receive COLA instead of escalation.
Tier 3 Escalation (Pages 17-19 in the tier 3 PDF online at www.nyc.gov/assets/nycppf/downloads/pdf/tier-3-spd-2022.pdf if you want to read it in its entirety)
"Members may be eligible for Escalation on their pension. Escalation is a post-retirement
increase (or decrease) to retirement benefits and are calculated by the New York City Office of
the Actuary. Escalation is capped annually at 3%. In the event of negative escalation, your
benefit will never be reduced below your initial pension amount.
Tier 3 Enhanced members who retire for a disability, do not receive escalation, rather Cost of
Living Adjustments (COLA).
Tier 3 members eligible for Escalation will receive the greater of COLA or Escalation as
calculated on a cumulative basis."
So, using the same example of a tier 3 MOS who retired with a $100,000 pension and a 2.5% federal CPI (although this is where it gets a bit murkier.... since this will be calculated by the NYC Office of the Actuary..... not the Federal CPI), the raise for that MOS will be $2,500 ($208 per month). It won't track perfectly over time since inflation is highly variable, but historical US inflation has been in the ballpark of 2.5% to 3% over the longterm, so even with the cap of 3% in any given year, the fact that you can 'bank' future inflation should make up the loss for periods of high inflation.
A few things to keep in mind:
1/ Tier 2 doesn't really get COLA until in their 60's, since even if they do receive it, it will be deducted from their VSF payments. And it's such a small amount that it's virtually useless anyway. An extra $18.75 a month in 25 years will probably buy you a pack of gum.
2/ Tier 3 doesn't seem to have any reduction in VSF based on their escalation payments, which they begin to receive at retirement after 25 years of service; not at age 62 like tier 2 COLA.
3/ Tier 3 escalation raises will compound on the previous year's payments, so over time, tier 3 pensions will keep up with inflation while tier 2 pensions will not. Even with the SS offset at 62, the pension will still remain strong into the future. A pension and SS payment with inflation protection for life are a very, very good deal that most pensioned retirees don't have. Except for military/federal pensioners.
After 25 years at 2.5% inflation, a tier 2 retirees pension will have the same spending power as $54,000 today. A tier 3 retiree with full escalation will maintain that $100,000 spending power ($185,000 in nominal terms 25 years in the future), LESS the social security offset which gets applied at age 62. It is a big difference over time, especially when you add up the extra pension money from escalation over an extended period of time, and to minimize escalation as a couple grand every few years is really not an accurate financial statement to make. Not saying stay or don't stay, just saying make an informed decision when the time comes.
yea I was looking at it on a yearly basis but when you factor in the compounding part it changes a lot.
so does tier 3 have to stay past 20 for escalation? or they are eligible at 20, 5 years after retirement. Sorry little confusing