I am with you on this. The last 30 were research. The wording told me the same.
-- Edited by yougonow on Tuesday 22nd of October 2013 10:58:04 AM
BxPogiBoy said
Oct 22, 2013
The Mayor's Executive Order Question was on every promotional exam ever given . I doubt thats a research question.
-- Edited by BxPogiBoy on Tuesday 22nd of October 2013 12:15:03 PM
yougonow said
Oct 22, 2013
I do not think the 30 experiments had anything to do with the sabbath/other day exam takers.
There is some other method to this madness, whatever it may be simply because.. If they were so concerned, they would have
A) Attacked this problem ages ago. and B) Simply mix up the questions in the booklet for the odd day examination and be done with it.
So you have to really ask yourself.. they spent X amount of money for EXTRA pages per booklet, whereas they would have simply made the scramble for a couple dozen exam booklets and be done with it.
If it was for cheating and if it cost .50cents a page extra for 30 extra pages(lets say), it would cost the city an extra $180,000 for 12,000 test booklets. To deter cheating? Nah.. it does not make sense. It would only cost a little extra time to scramble.
-- Edited by yougonow on Tuesday 22nd of October 2013 02:14:16 PM
the ringer said
Oct 22, 2013
Research questions...do you remember word for word the question and the choices???? For the mayors question? I took this test at least twice before and stumbled on that question, which should be the easiest question on the whole test. A huge part why some sgts get a 70 instead of a 69 in the first place, cause it's an easy answer!!! But it wasn't!!!! If you add that there was double questions after the 100, then that's where the research was!!!! Aka the NOE PRIOR to taking the test on the desk and in email THREE WEEKS ago stated you SHOULD answer all the questions....I got a 60 anyway, I'm just trying to ease some of your minds, either I'm thinking way too much or you guys clearly didn't get the letter prior, and I'm giving dcas waaaaayyyy too much credit. If you took the Nassau tests you'd understand. It was a little similar, good luck. In a year you guys can cram my page with me being wrong, just my opinion especially when I put it all together...sorry just had to cut in paste in this I thought I made a good point in this... Too tired to redo...
-- Edited by the ringer on Tuesday 22nd of October 2013 02:23:07 PM
ohnoes said
Oct 22, 2013
You're not seeing my point my friend. If the final 30 questions were the sample questions, whatever usefulness they get out of this would be over. As in a one time thing. because all test takers in the future would know its the last 30 questions, then either not take them or intentional put the wrong answer, etc... In science it's called the observer effect. If a person knows where and when they are being watched that will alter their behavior whether consciously or not. They have to mix the questions in so yo don't which ones they are for DCAS to get their use out of them.
-- Edited by ohnoes on Tuesday 22nd of October 2013 02:22:32 PM
yougonow said
Oct 22, 2013
lets not forget this was the first go around for experiments, who is to say they will do this again?
if they do, perhaps the NEXT exam will be mixed in?
It just does not make sense to mix in experiments/toss outs if you got it CORRECT, within the exam in itself. Meaning... you got the experiment question CORRECT but got a "regular" question wrong. Does that really show who is qualified to be promoted?
You still got a question correct. experiment or NOT. Its a damn good argument. How would they also NUMBER the answer key?
1-16, 20, 22,23,24, 27, 28,29,34, so on so on?
It just does not look proper or correct to do such a thing.
This is why I think there is something else brewing and strong chance that its either a CURVE or a last 30 are toss outs.
-- Edited by yougonow on Tuesday 22nd of October 2013 02:29:30 PM
pingu343 said
Oct 22, 2013
I had to register to post this. really people, stop it with the last 30 wont count. On the front of the question booklet, it was printed in clear letters, there are 30 additional questions "though out" the test which will be used for research purposes. However, you are recommended to answer all 130 questions.
How much more clear can one be? they didn't say the first 30, they didn't say the last 30. If going be some people and their family member in DCAS, only the last 30 are research questions, then DCAS just simply lied in print, on their test booklet. You really think they would open themselves up for a lawsuit by lying like that?
It was unfair, the additional questions, of course, but no matter how you cut it now, it's pretty simple. DCAS knows the reserach questions, which are mixed up with the rest and they will throw them out and that'll be that. It'll benefit some people, it'll hurt some people, but everyone will move on and people not making the list will take the next test. Sorry.
-- Edited by pingu343 on Tuesday 22nd of October 2013 03:29:21 PM
the ringer said
Oct 22, 2013
I am not in the palace and do not have any inside connections however this is why the last 30 DO NOT count!!! I received an email from DCAS 3 weeks prior to the test that stated "there will be research questions that are in the test and you SHOULD answer all the questions. Apparently they are having problems with sabbath observers etc getting answers to test this way they believe the 130 will count and have to study longer than they thought. Further states the Mayor executive question MAY be included in the test.... Think bout it, why are they NOT GIVING an answer key? Answer because they want to do this every year and want everyone to take all 130 questions! If you find out , the questions are 1-100 then why would anyone do all 130 next time? Not giving anything away however there were 2 questions in that test that I'm sure tricked a few, that seemed easy while taking it, 1st the EVIDENCE question and 2nd the Mayor executive question...After someone confirms they all took the test I will reveal the correct answers. It will leave you shaking your heads...
the ringer said
Oct 22, 2013
If the list is long and a lot of people get high marks I'm TOTALLY correct! If the questions are really mixed then a lot of people will score low cause either they didn't finish the test or didn't treat the last with proper effort as I did. I put ABCDA in the last cause I wanted to go home...
pingu343 said
Oct 22, 2013
Arrow wrote:
pingu343 wrote:
I had to register to post this. really people, stop it with the last 30 wont count. On the front of the question booklet, it was printed in clear letters, there are 30 additional questions "though out" the test which will be used for research purposes. However, you are recommended to answer all 130 questions.
How much more clear can one be? they didn't say the first 30, they didn't say the last 30. If going be some people and their family member in DCAS, only the last 30 are research questions, then DCAS just simply lied in print, on their test booklet. You really think they would open themselves up for a lawsuit by lying like that?
It was unfair, the additional questions, of course, but no matter how you cut it now, it's pretty simple. DCAS knows the reserach questions, which are mixed up with the rest and they will throw them out and that'll be that. It'll benefit some people, it'll hurt some people, but everyone will move on and people not making the list will take the next test. Sorry.
-- Edited by pingu343 on Tuesday 22nd of October 2013 03:29:21 PM
This is what the ammended NOE says
"The multiple-choice test will contain additional questions which will be used for research purposes only. These questions will not count toward your test score and will not be included in the protest review process. However, you should answer all questions in the test booklet".
it says we should answer all the question not MUST answer. And my other point in the amended NOE doesn't say that the research questions will be mixed in. It says aditional questions. We found this out on the day of the exam. DCAS Made a mistake there. There is something legal that can be done. this an integrity issue by doing this. and buy not telling is which were the 30 questions. So explain this.
I mean, if you're gonna focus on the wording, "should" vs. "Must" then I don't know what to say. The first email I got from DCAS mentioned additional questions. It didn't mention how many and it didn't mention if they will be at the end. But I'm telling you what the instructions on the test booklet said. And that was clear as day, 30 additional question mixed "through out" the test. They simply won't go back on that and say, oh the last 30 were research.
At this point, it really sucks for people who didn't do the last 30, weren't able to do the last 30 due to time constraints. But the dcas instructions were very clear on the test day. They're gonna go by what they instructed on the booklet.
-- Edited by pingu343 on Tuesday 22nd of October 2013 03:48:53 PM
the ringer said
Oct 22, 2013
The mayors question will prove that's the research question!!! What did you put as the answer????? Think bout it
the ringer said
Oct 22, 2013
Also for everyone to go to DCAS and get their answers DCAS is making $8,000!!!!!! A $1 per answer !!!
the ringer said
Oct 22, 2013
Thank you. Have to give to DCAS to be sooo creative
Lu515 said
Oct 22, 2013
Ringer why are you so sure explain yourself????
TV1234 said
Oct 22, 2013
If the last 30 dont count then the sabbath observers can still get the answers and stop at 100. No where it said the last 30 won't count. I find it hard to believe the mayor executive question is a research question. All those questions on the test where PG. Dcas did not actually say the last 30 don't count. If they actually said that I would of stopped at 100. They probably didn't even pick the questions that don't count yet.
yougonow said
Oct 22, 2013
Lu..
He did state his theory already.
yougonow said
Oct 22, 2013
It still does not make sense that adding 30 expiriments deter cheating.
Arrow said
Oct 22, 2013
You make sense ringer. Hope you are right.
the ringer said
Oct 22, 2013
The Mayors question was a research question in the fact that the choices were of like in a Nassau test. If you guys went to the key, they gave you hints of that in their test taking tips. What did you pick???? Don't reveal your answer till everyone took this test. The 130 makes the sabbath observers maybe a little weary of taking the test thinking that now they have to answer 130 in 6 hours,, a little anxiety maybe??
ohnoes said
Oct 22, 2013
the ringer wrote:
I am not in the palace and do not have any inside connections however this is why the last 30 DO NOT count!!! I received an email from DCAS 3 weeks prior to the test that stated "there will be research questions that are in the test and you SHOULD answer all the questions. Apparently they are having problems with sabbath observers etc getting answers to test this way they believe the 130 will count and have to study longer than they thought. Further states the Mayor executive question MAY be included in the test.... Think bout it, why are they NOT GIVING an answer key? Answer because they want to do this every year and want everyone to take all 130 questions! If you find out , the questions are 1-100 then why would anyone do all 130 next time? Not giving anything away however there were 2 questions in that test that I'm sure tricked a few, that seemed easy while taking it, 1st the EVIDENCE question and 2nd the Mayor executive question...After someone confirms they all took the test I will reveal the correct answers. It will leave you shaking your heads...
You refute your own statement.
"Think bout it, why are they NOT GIVING an answer key? Answer because they want to do this every year and want everyone to take all 130 questions! If you find out , the questions are 1-100 then why would anyone do all 130 next time?"
But the fact is everyone or almost everyone will at some point have an answer key and would find out it's the last 30 that were the non counting questions. Even if you don't go to the protest session to view the proposed answer key, one person from this forum will definitely go, immediately upon exiting the protest session that person will go to their car and post "The last 30 were the non counting questions" thus making everyone in future years simply not take the last 30 questions. The 30 practice questions were distributed throughout the test. Most probably in a normal distribution, meaning about 6 of every 25 questions didn't count.
Now mind this. Probability is a beautiful thing. if you got 91/130 which equals a 70%, probability is you got a 70% on the 100 real question test. Obviously there is some room for movement (statistical error), however if you got say 104/130 I would say with 99% confidence you passed this test. (There's two assumptions here, 1. the sample questions were evenly distributed throughout the test, 2. the sample questions were no harder or easier than the real questions.)
the ringer said
Oct 22, 2013
Ohnoes....very good point, someone revealed that they may give you the answer , numbers at a protest. Maybe then they will give you an hour next test for those extras....I heard that after I posted that....... Just my opinion... Good luck to all
the ringer said
Oct 22, 2013
Ohnoes, yougonnow, had what I was trying to in a way. The next time the will mix in the research questions, and by doing so, it will most likely be told ahead of time with extra time on top of it. I honestly think it's a good idea, the research part
ohnoes said
Oct 22, 2013
Agreed a basic assumption is we are assuming that this will happen again.
However, this is a practice on most standardized exams. Just doing a quick search I found "sample" questions were used in the SAT, ACT, LSAT, and NY Bar Exam. They use the questions to attempt to make the next test more fair by testing out the questions to make sure an acceptable amount of people get them correct.
ohnoes said
Oct 22, 2013
OK I get your point now.
the ringer said
Oct 22, 2013
yougonow...last time I lost my answer key, I went to dcas, and for $1 they gave me almost a photo copy of my scantron
yougonow said
Oct 22, 2013
ohnoes wrote:
Agreed a basic assumption is we are assuming that this will happen again. However, this is a practice on most standardized exams. Just doing a quick search I found "sample" questions were used in the SAT, ACT, LSAT, and NY Bar Exam. They use the questions to attempt to make the next test more fair by testing out the questions to make sure an acceptable amount of people get them correct.
why? it is not like we have an epedemic of failures or not enough promotions. we have plenty.
It still makes no sense. So now they made up those questions.. ok.. they are NOT going to be incorporated in the next exam.. so.. they still need NEW questions. Whats the point if you STILL need to make new questions.
Am I explaining it right?
Its a city exam, far from a BAR, SAT, ACT..whatever.
ohnoes said
Oct 22, 2013
and you know they wont be used in future exams how?
yougonow said
Oct 22, 2013
I dont know.
carman728 said
Oct 22, 2013
Ringer, don't you believe though that there should be an argument on the allotted time? 30 is a lot of extra questions to add in with no additional time. And for those who choose to do the in basket last got screwed if they ran out of time if it's true about the last 30 being the research ones.
Wingnut said
Oct 22, 2013
The time frame sucks bad, but everyone who took the exam had the same amount of time. No one got an unfair advantage so no appeal, lawsuit, or anything else you want to call it is going to get off the ground.
Arrow said
Oct 22, 2013
In a slow test taker. I don't want to rush through an exam. I did everthing in order. In-basket first and questions last. However I didn't get to finish do to the extra 30 question. I only got to 112 so 30 research questions were not fair without more that is the highest argument. im sure some people can finish that exam on time but I didn't. This is everyone's argument. If they would had given an extra hour or hour and a half that would had been fair for everyone.
Arrow said
Oct 22, 2013
pingu343 wrote:
I had to register to post this. really people, stop it with the last 30 wont count. On the front of the question booklet, it was printed in clear letters, there are 30 additional questions "though out" the test which will be used for research purposes. However, you are recommended to answer all 130 questions.
How much more clear can one be? they didn't say the first 30, they didn't say the last 30. If going be some people and their family member in DCAS, only the last 30 are research questions, then DCAS just simply lied in print, on their test booklet. You really think they would open themselves up for a lawsuit by lying like that?
It was unfair, the additional questions, of course, but no matter how you cut it now, it's pretty simple. DCAS knows the reserach questions, which are mixed up with the rest and they will throw them out and that'll be that. It'll benefit some people, it'll hurt some people, but everyone will move on and people not making the list will take the next test. Sorry.
-- Edited by pingu343 on Tuesday 22nd of October 2013 03:29:21 PM
This is what the ammended NOE says
"The multiple-choice test will contain additional questions which will be used for research purposes only. These questions will not count toward your test score and will not be included in the protest review process. However, you should answer all questions in the test booklet".
it says we should answer all the question not MUST answer. And my other point in the amended NOE doesn't say that the research questions will be mixed in. It says aditional questions. We found this out on the day of the exam. DCAS Made a mistake there. There is something legal that can be done. this an integrity issue by doing this. and buy not telling is which were the 30 questions. So explain this.
Wingnut said
Oct 22, 2013
Does the original NOE say "must?" I doubt it. "Must" implies that if you don't finish, your test will not even be graded.
I understand you are frustrated but you are clutching at straws over semantics.
que1999 said
Oct 22, 2013
If in the instructions prior to starting the exam it was clearly stated that 30 additional questions will be mixed throughout the exam for research purposes, then stop beating the dead horse. I know it sucks you guys had 130 questions with the same time allotment, but in the end DCAS decided to leave the exam time @ 6 hours, which was totally within their rights to do. After all, they do decide how much time to allot in the first place for all promotional exams. If they wanted to give 4 hours for these exams, they could. One of the first, most important rules of taking any important exam is to fully and thoroughly read ALL instructions prior to commencing the exam..... Exactly for exams like this one.
dianab said
Oct 23, 2013
It is not giving anyone anxiety because anyone can call a friend and someone till them the questions and now there prepared for the 130 and whoever still has to take this test will know to finish it and not stop at 100. All your theories are great but it's still what dcas wants they are probably reading this hysterical and probably going to make the list as short as ppossible
we all got screwed trying to figure out why don't make the 5 week wait go any slower
Liberal Tools said
Oct 23, 2013
Well stated que1999. Couldn't agree more
kenny said
Oct 23, 2013
HOPEFULLY THEY DONT. ALOT OF US WILL BE OKAY IF THIS HAPPENS. KIND OF DOUBT IT BECAUSE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL QUESTION AFTER 100
jaribu said
Oct 23, 2013
HAS ANY OF THE KEY INSTRUCTORS COMMENTED ABOUT THE EXAM???? THERE WERE 6500 PEOPLE WHO TOOK THE TEST, THE FAIREST THING TO DO IS THROW OUT 30 WRONG ANSWERS FROM EVERYONES EXAM. THIS WILL MAKE THE LIST PROBABLY 3000 NAMES LONG BUT NO ONE COULD SUE, WHINE, OR BITCH ABOUT THINGS BEING UNFAIR. LET DCAS AND THE NYPD HIRE THE HIGHEST 1500 PEOPLE OFF THE LIST THEN CUT IT. I SPOKE TO THE GUY WHO CREATED THE KEY COURSE ON CRAM 3 OF THE SGT CLASS AND HE SAID HE SPOKE TO THE HEAD OF DCAS ABOUT THE EXAM AND THEN SAID TO ME MAKE SURE YOU FOCUS ON THE FIRST 100 QUESTIONS ONCE YOU FINISH THOSE DONT LEAVE THE OTHER QUESTIONS BLANK JUST TRY TO GET TO THEM.
jaribu said
Oct 23, 2013
THE INSPECTOR GENERAL QUESTION WAS ONLY ASKED 3 TIMES OUT OF THE LAST 8 SGT EXAMS. DOESNT ALWAYS HAVE TO BE ON THE TEST.
the ringer said
Oct 23, 2013
The test is made to mess with your head. The cover of the booklet you can disregard. That needed to be told ahed of time. And if they're saying you "should" answer all the questions they do NOT need to give you more time
VIPER6 jam up said
Oct 24, 2013
I left 80 questions empty due to this 30 extra question made me Nervous i had to use the bathroom almost 12x.i definately fail im protesting this test.im suing the job.
youcallwebrawl said
Oct 24, 2013
Maybe they wanted to see who could handle the pressure? Everyone should have finished at least the 1 - 100
kenny said
Oct 24, 2013
this is the adress that goes straight to the person in charge of the test. lets not be lazy guys..grab a piece of paper a stamp and envelope and write to them. be heard!!! mail your appeals and complaints to ------------
EXAM SUPPORT GROUP 1 CENTRE STREET, ROOM 1448 NY NY 10007 (ATT: DIRECTOR)
the ringer said
Oct 24, 2013
Usually they also have a proctor come in and try to mess with your head and say, for example, question 22, choice A should read blah blah blah. Then test takers are thinking mmmm maybe that's the right answer. They mind fudge you, that's why I say disregard that first page. If I'm wrong blast this page, if I'm right tell the PC I should be a Captain.
-- Edited by the ringer on Thursday 24th of October 2013 12:26:09 PM
jaribu said
Oct 24, 2013
FOR THE PEOPLE WHO RAN OUT OF TIME. IF THE RESEARCH QUESTIONS ARE EVENLY DISTRIBUTED THROUGHOUT THE TEST THEN IT WOULD MAKE NO SENSE TO DO THE INBASKET FIRST. STATISTICALLY SPEAKING A PERSON SHOULD DO THE OTHER 114 QUESTIONS AND WITH WHAT LITTLE TIME THEY HAD LEFT THEY SHOULD FINISH THE INBASKET QUESTIONS. YOU SHOULD HAVE A GREATER PROBABLITY OF PASSING BECAUSE THE INBASKET IS EXTREMELY TIME CONSUMING. I DID THE INBASKET FIRST AND RAN OUT OF TIME ON THE TEST. AS OF NOW I HAVE 87 QESTIONS RIGHT OUT OF THE FIRST 100 AND ONLY 5 QUESTIONS RIGHT OUT OF THE LAST 30. SHOULD HAVE DONE ALL 114 QUESTIONS FIRST AND NOT HAVE SPENT THOSE 2 1/2 HOURS ON THE INBASKET. I WOULD HAVE HAD A 100% CHANCE OF PASSING RIGHT NOW.
-- Edited by jaribu on Thursday 24th of October 2013 04:58:53 PM
the ringer said
Oct 24, 2013
They don't have to give you extra Time got the questions cause you "should" answer the questions not "must". They count your test even if you didn't finish.....we will see
Arrow said
Oct 24, 2013
That's what I'm hoping for, but DCAS is on some secrect squirel stuff.
jaribu said
Oct 25, 2013
I have always completely disagreed with doing the in basket last. Regardless of how long the exam was, most people are A. fried by late in the exam. The in basket requires maximum attention and focus, which is difficult to achieve after sitting in a. the same seat for three hours.
Also, if you were in danger of not finishing, wouldn't you want to use that time to answer questions that require very little a knowledge of the patrol guide?
If you had 2 hours left and have the option of doing 30 extra questions and getting 70% of those right or doing the inbasket with 16 questions and let's pretend for a moment and say you can get 90% of those right. So if you do the extra 30 you get 21 question right. If you do the 16 inbasket questions you get 14 questions right. It's smarter to do the extra 30 and skip the inbasket you end up with more correct answers and a greater probability of passing
-- Edited by jaribu on Friday 25th of October 2013 11:10:14 PM
yankeefanhatebsox said
Oct 26, 2013
Im almost certain a question like the mayors executive order question is a must on every test because of some law or something to that extent...i doubt they would choose that question as a "research question"....thats my opinion and ive also seen alot of people say that the last 30 questions are the research questions because of (insert theory here), but i remember clearly reading that the questions were distributed amongst the 100 questions that count... like the guy from the key said whats not on the text is just as important as whats on the text and with that being said it didnt say anywhere on the instructions that it would be the last 30 questions
Wingnut said
Oct 26, 2013
jaribu wrote:
FOR THE PEOPLE WHO RAN OUT OF TIME. IF THE RESEARCH QUESTIONS ARE EVENLY DISTRIBUTED THROUGHOUT THE TEST THEN IT WOULD MAKE NO SENSE TO DO THE INBASKET FIRST. STATISTICALLY SPEAKING A PERSON SHOULD DO THE OTHER 114 QUESTIONS AND WITH WHAT LITTLE TIME THEY HAD LEFT THEY SHOULD FINISH THE INBASKET QUESTIONS. YOU SHOULD HAVE A GREATER PROBABLITY OF PASSING BECAUSE THE INBASKET IS EXTREMELY TIME CONSUMING. I DID THE INBASKET FIRST AND RAN OUT OF TIME ON THE TEST. AS OF NOW I HAVE 87 QESTIONS RIGHT OUT OF THE FIRST 100 AND ONLY 5 QUESTIONS RIGHT OUT OF THE LAST 30. SHOULD HAVE DONE ALL 114 QUESTIONS FIRST AND NOT HAVE SPENT THOSE 2 1/2 HOURS ON THE INBASKET. I WOULD HAVE HAD A 100% CHANCE OF PASSING RIGHT NOW.
-- Edited by jaribu on Thursday 24th of October 2013 04:58:53 PM
I have always completely disagreed with doing the in basket last. Regardless of how long the exam was, most people are fried by late in the exam. The in basket requires maximum attention and focus, which is difficult to achieve after sitting in the same seat for three hours.
Also, if you were in danger of not finishing, wouldn't you want to use that time to answer questions that require very little knowledge of the patrol guide?
There were two iab questions.
I am with you on this. The last 30 were research. The wording told me the same.
-- Edited by yougonow on Tuesday 22nd of October 2013 10:58:04 AM
The Mayor's Executive Order Question was on every promotional exam ever given . I doubt thats a research question.
-- Edited by BxPogiBoy on Tuesday 22nd of October 2013 12:15:03 PM
I do not think the 30 experiments had anything to do with the sabbath/other day exam takers.
There is some other method to this madness, whatever it may be simply because.. If they were so concerned, they would have
A) Attacked this problem ages ago.
and
B) Simply mix up the questions in the booklet for the odd day examination and be done with it.
So you have to really ask yourself.. they spent X amount of money for EXTRA pages per booklet, whereas they would have simply made the scramble for a couple dozen exam booklets and be done with it.
If it was for cheating and if it cost .50cents a page extra for 30 extra pages(lets say), it would cost the city an extra $180,000 for 12,000 test booklets. To deter cheating? Nah.. it does not make sense. It would only cost a little extra time to scramble.
-- Edited by yougonow on Tuesday 22nd of October 2013 02:14:16 PM
Research questions...do you remember word for word the question and the choices???? For the mayors question? I took this test at least twice before and stumbled on that question, which should be the easiest question on the whole test. A huge part why some sgts get a 70 instead of a 69 in the first place, cause it's an easy answer!!! But it wasn't!!!! If you add that there was double questions after the 100, then that's where the research was!!!! Aka the NOE PRIOR to taking the test on the desk and in email THREE WEEKS ago stated you SHOULD answer all the questions....I got a 60 anyway, I'm just trying to ease some of your minds, either I'm thinking way too much or you guys clearly didn't get the letter prior, and I'm giving dcas waaaaayyyy too much credit. If you took the Nassau tests you'd understand. It was a little similar, good luck. In a year you guys can cram my page with me being wrong, just my opinion especially when I put it all together...sorry just had to cut in paste in this I thought I made a good point in this... Too tired to redo...
-- Edited by the ringer on Tuesday 22nd of October 2013 02:23:07 PM
You're not seeing my point my friend. If the final 30 questions were the sample questions, whatever usefulness they get out of this would be over. As in a one time thing. because all test takers in the future would know its the last 30 questions, then either not take them or intentional put the wrong answer, etc... In science it's called the observer effect. If a person knows where and when they are being watched that will alter their behavior whether consciously or not. They have to mix the questions in so yo don't which ones they are for DCAS to get their use out of them.
-- Edited by ohnoes on Tuesday 22nd of October 2013 02:22:32 PM
lets not forget this was the first go around for experiments, who is to say they will do this again?
if they do, perhaps the NEXT exam will be mixed in?
It just does not make sense to mix in experiments/toss outs if you got it CORRECT, within the exam in itself. Meaning... you got the experiment question CORRECT but got a "regular" question wrong. Does that really show who is qualified to be promoted?
You still got a question correct. experiment or NOT. Its a damn good argument. How would they also NUMBER the answer key?
1-16, 20, 22,23,24, 27, 28,29,34, so on so on?
It just does not look proper or correct to do such a thing.
This is why I think there is something else brewing and strong chance that its either a CURVE or a last 30 are toss outs.
-- Edited by yougonow on Tuesday 22nd of October 2013 02:29:30 PM
I had to register to post this. really people, stop it with the last 30 wont count. On the front of the question booklet, it was printed in clear letters, there are 30 additional questions "though out" the test which will be used for research purposes. However, you are recommended to answer all 130 questions.
How much more clear can one be? they didn't say the first 30, they didn't say the last 30. If going be some people and their family member in DCAS, only the last 30 are research questions, then DCAS just simply lied in print, on their test booklet. You really think they would open themselves up for a lawsuit by lying like that?
It was unfair, the additional questions, of course, but no matter how you cut it now, it's pretty simple. DCAS knows the reserach questions, which are mixed up with the rest and they will throw them out and that'll be that. It'll benefit some people, it'll hurt some people, but everyone will move on and people not making the list will take the next test. Sorry.
-- Edited by pingu343 on Tuesday 22nd of October 2013 03:29:21 PM
I am not in the palace and do not have any inside connections however this is why the last 30 DO NOT count!!! I received an email from DCAS 3 weeks prior to the test that stated "there will be research questions that are in the test and you SHOULD answer all the questions. Apparently they are having problems with sabbath observers etc getting answers to test this way they believe the 130 will count and have to study longer than they thought. Further states the Mayor executive question MAY be included in the test.... Think bout it, why are they NOT GIVING an answer key? Answer because they want to do this every year and want everyone to take all 130 questions! If you find out , the questions are 1-100 then why would anyone do all 130 next time? Not giving anything away however there were 2 questions in that test that I'm sure tricked a few, that seemed easy while taking it, 1st the EVIDENCE question and 2nd the Mayor executive question...After someone confirms they all took the test I will reveal the correct answers. It will leave you shaking your heads...
If the list is long and a lot of people get high marks I'm TOTALLY correct! If the questions are really mixed then a lot of people will score low cause either they didn't finish the test or didn't treat the last with proper effort as I did. I put ABCDA in the last cause I wanted to go home...
I mean, if you're gonna focus on the wording, "should" vs. "Must" then I don't know what to say. The first email I got from DCAS mentioned additional questions. It didn't mention how many and it didn't mention if they will be at the end. But I'm telling you what the instructions on the test booklet said. And that was clear as day, 30 additional question mixed "through out" the test. They simply won't go back on that and say, oh the last 30 were research.
At this point, it really sucks for people who didn't do the last 30, weren't able to do the last 30 due to time constraints. But the dcas instructions were very clear on the test day. They're gonna go by what they instructed on the booklet.
-- Edited by pingu343 on Tuesday 22nd of October 2013 03:48:53 PM
The mayors question will prove that's the research question!!! What did you put as the answer????? Think bout it
Also for everyone to go to DCAS and get their answers DCAS is making $8,000!!!!!! A $1 per answer !!!
Thank you. Have to give to DCAS to be sooo creative
Ringer why are you so sure explain yourself????
He did state his theory already.
You make sense ringer. Hope you are right.
The Mayors question was a research question in the fact that the choices were of like in a Nassau test. If you guys went to the key, they gave you hints of that in their test taking tips. What did you pick???? Don't reveal your answer till everyone took this test. The 130 makes the sabbath observers maybe a little weary of taking the test thinking that now they have to answer 130 in 6 hours,, a little anxiety maybe??
You refute your own statement.
"Think bout it, why are they NOT GIVING an answer key? Answer because they want to do this every year and want everyone to take all 130 questions! If you find out , the questions are 1-100 then why would anyone do all 130 next time?"
But the fact is everyone or almost everyone will at some point have an answer key and would find out it's the last 30 that were the non counting questions. Even if you don't go to the protest session to view the proposed answer key, one person from this forum will definitely go, immediately upon exiting the protest session that person will go to their car and post "The last 30 were the non counting questions" thus making everyone in future years simply not take the last 30 questions. The 30 practice questions were distributed throughout the test. Most probably in a normal distribution, meaning about 6 of every 25 questions didn't count.
Now mind this. Probability is a beautiful thing. if you got 91/130 which equals a 70%, probability is you got a 70% on the 100 real question test. Obviously there is some room for movement (statistical error), however if you got say 104/130 I would say with 99% confidence you passed this test. (There's two assumptions here, 1. the sample questions were evenly distributed throughout the test, 2. the sample questions were no harder or easier than the real questions.)
Ohnoes....very good point, someone revealed that they may give you the answer , numbers at a protest. Maybe then they will give you an hour next test for those extras....I heard that after I posted that....... Just my opinion... Good luck to all
Ohnoes, yougonnow, had what I was trying to in a way. The next time the will mix in the research questions, and by doing so, it will most likely be told ahead of time with extra time on top of it. I honestly think it's a good idea, the research part
However, this is a practice on most standardized exams. Just doing a quick search I found "sample" questions were used in the SAT, ACT, LSAT, and NY Bar Exam. They use the questions to attempt to make the next test more fair by testing out the questions to make sure an acceptable amount of people get them correct.
yougonow...last time I lost my answer key, I went to dcas, and for $1 they gave me almost a photo copy of my scantron
why? it is not like we have an epedemic of failures or not enough promotions. we have plenty.
It still makes no sense. So now they made up those questions.. ok.. they are NOT going to be incorporated in the next exam.. so.. they still need NEW questions. Whats the point if you STILL need to make new questions.
Am I explaining it right?
Its a city exam, far from a BAR, SAT, ACT..whatever.
Ringer, don't you believe though that there should be an argument on the allotted time? 30 is a lot of extra questions to add in with no additional time. And for those who choose to do the in basket last got screwed if they ran out of time if it's true about the last 30 being the research ones.
In a slow test taker. I don't want to rush through an exam. I did everthing in order. In-basket first and questions last. However I didn't get to finish do to the extra 30 question. I only got to 112 so 30 research questions were not fair without more that is the highest argument. im sure some people can finish that exam on time but I didn't. This is everyone's argument. If they would had given an extra hour or hour and a half that would had been fair for everyone.
This is what the ammended NOE says
"The multiple-choice test will contain additional questions which will be used for research purposes only. These questions will not count toward your test score and will not be included in the protest review process. However, you should answer all questions in the test booklet".
it says we should answer all the question not MUST answer. And my other point in the amended NOE doesn't say that the research questions will be mixed in. It says aditional questions. We found this out on the day of the exam. DCAS Made a mistake there. There is something legal that can be done. this an integrity issue by doing this. and buy not telling is which were the 30 questions. So explain this.
I understand you are frustrated but you are clutching at straws over semantics.
It is not giving anyone anxiety because anyone can call a friend and someone till them the questions and now there prepared for the 130 and whoever still has to take this test will know to finish it and not stop at 100. All your theories are great but it's still what dcas wants they are probably reading this hysterical and probably going to make the list as short as ppossible
we all got screwed trying to figure out why don't make the 5 week wait go any slower
HOPEFULLY THEY DONT. ALOT OF US WILL BE OKAY IF THIS HAPPENS. KIND OF DOUBT IT BECAUSE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL QUESTION AFTER 100
The test is made to mess with your head. The cover of the booklet you can disregard. That needed to be told ahed of time. And if they're saying you "should" answer all the questions they do NOT need to give you more time
Maybe they wanted to see who could handle the pressure? Everyone should have finished at least the 1 - 100
this is the adress that goes straight to the person in charge of the test. lets not be lazy guys..grab a piece of paper a stamp and envelope and write to them. be heard!!! mail your appeals and complaints to ------------
EXAM SUPPORT GROUP 1 CENTRE STREET, ROOM 1448 NY NY 10007 (ATT: DIRECTOR)
Usually they also have a proctor come in and try to mess with your head and say, for example, question 22, choice A should read blah blah blah. Then test takers are thinking mmmm maybe that's the right answer. They mind fudge you, that's why I say disregard that first page. If I'm wrong blast this page, if I'm right tell the PC I should be a Captain.
-- Edited by the ringer on Thursday 24th of October 2013 12:26:09 PM
FOR THE PEOPLE WHO RAN OUT OF TIME. IF THE RESEARCH QUESTIONS ARE EVENLY DISTRIBUTED THROUGHOUT THE TEST THEN IT WOULD MAKE NO SENSE TO DO THE INBASKET FIRST. STATISTICALLY SPEAKING A PERSON SHOULD DO THE OTHER 114 QUESTIONS AND WITH WHAT LITTLE TIME THEY HAD LEFT THEY SHOULD FINISH THE INBASKET QUESTIONS. YOU SHOULD HAVE A GREATER PROBABLITY OF PASSING BECAUSE THE INBASKET IS EXTREMELY TIME CONSUMING. I DID THE INBASKET FIRST AND RAN OUT OF TIME ON THE TEST. AS OF NOW I HAVE 87 QESTIONS RIGHT OUT OF THE FIRST 100 AND ONLY 5 QUESTIONS RIGHT OUT OF THE LAST 30. SHOULD HAVE DONE ALL 114 QUESTIONS FIRST AND NOT HAVE SPENT THOSE 2 1/2 HOURS ON THE INBASKET. I WOULD HAVE HAD A 100% CHANCE OF PASSING RIGHT NOW.
-- Edited by jaribu on Thursday 24th of October 2013 04:58:53 PM
That's what I'm hoping for, but DCAS is on some secrect squirel stuff.
I have always completely disagreed with doing the in basket last. Regardless of how long the exam was, most people are A. fried by late in the exam. The in basket requires maximum attention and focus, which is difficult to achieve after sitting in a. the same seat for three hours.
Also, if you were in danger of not finishing, wouldn't you want to use that time to answer questions that require very little a knowledge of the patrol guide?
If you had 2 hours left and have the option of doing 30 extra questions and getting 70% of those right or doing the inbasket with 16 questions and let's pretend for a moment and say you can get 90% of those right. So if you do the extra 30 you get 21 question right. If you do the 16 inbasket questions you get 14 questions right. It's smarter to do the extra 30 and skip the inbasket you end up with more correct answers and a greater probability of passing
-- Edited by jaribu on Friday 25th of October 2013 11:10:14 PM
I have always completely disagreed with doing the in basket last. Regardless of how long the exam was, most people are fried by late in the exam. The in basket requires maximum attention and focus, which is difficult to achieve after sitting in the same seat for three hours.
Also, if you were in danger of not finishing, wouldn't you want to use that time to answer questions that require very little knowledge of the patrol guide?